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Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

issues.apache.org

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Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#191

Post by chrisco255 »

Steeeve wrote: post #19
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering almost every single large tech company is using React, presumably there's not much reason for concern? IANAL. But you're not wrong, preact is a great alternative to react and it comes with a permissive license.

> Considering almost every single large tech company is using React React isn't as popular in the real world as it is on HN.

Wal-Mart, Baidu, Spotify, Netflix, Coinbase, Wired, Yahoo, Atlassian, AirBnB, Asana, Atlassian, BBC, Chegg, CloudFlare, CNN.com, Codecademy, Coursera, Craftsy, Dailymotion, Dropbox, Expedia, Facebook, Feedly, Flipboard, HipChat, IMDb, Imgur, Instagram, Khan Academy, KISSmetrics, Mattermark, Minerva Project, Netflix, OkCupid, Rackspace, Rally Software, Ralph Lauren, Reddit, Redfin, Salesforce, Squarespace, The New York Times, Trunk Club, Twitter, Uber, University of Cincinnati, Venmo, WhatsApp, Wired, Wix, WordPress, Yahoo, Zendesk, Microsoft, Apple

If y'all think you're going to find some edge case that these companies lawyers haven't already...

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#192

Post by fencepost »

chrisco255 wrote: post #186
fencepost wrote: post #146

I was interested in React based on what I'd read and was figuring it'd be worth looking into, but this provides all the reason I need to avoid it - I don't forsee a situation where I would personally or as a small company be suing Facebook, but I could see developing something then selling/trying to sell it to a larger company. If my code comes with a big side of "oh, and if you buy this you won't be able to sue Face…

If Microsoft's lawyers were okay with React, then I'm pretty sure your startup is okay. https://github.com/Microsoft/react-native-windows

I'll call that a false equivalency, because only in my wildest dreams can I consider anything I'm working on equivalent to Microsoft. Among the Microsoft-level things I lack I'll count their legal teams, patent portfolio, and negotiating clout.

Anything I as a solo or mostly-solo dev would put together to sell would almost certainly be sold to a company less than 0.1% Microsoft's size - even at the 1% level it's just as likely that a company would decide they'd rather just build their own version or get someone to do so as a work for hire.

Edit: I'm also mentally picturing scenarios where Facebook's terms might end up tested in court. A developer team using an open-source framework without understanding the legal ramifications is one thing, and a thing done by people not authorized to negotiate binding contracts for the company. A purchase of a company or significant software (not off-the-shelf) on the other hand is by definition done by someone with authority to negotiate binding contracts. It's not that hard to imagine a scenario where that difference becomes relevant in court. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that Facebook had an intern or two somewhere focused on identifying and tracking projects using React and what companies they're owned by, just in case they end up in a conflict with someone and need to say "Hey, are they using anything of ours that can make this go away?"

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#194

Post by chrisco255 »

objclxt wrote: post #75
Avshalom wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you have only named a few though; 'almost every single large tech company' requires a particular definition of large tech company or a lot more than a few to be a useful(ly true) statement

Take a look here: https://github.com/facebook/react/wiki/sites-using-react ...that's obviously not complete, either. If you think of a large tech company the odds are they are using react somewhere for something, be it public facing or internal tooling. Many of the companies that aren't actively using React do so because they have their own JS stacks to dogfood (like Google and Angular).

Google hardly dogfoods Angular. They use Closure for most of their apps. SPF for YouTube. Polymer in some places. GWT in many others.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#196

Post by Nullabillity »

beagle3 wrote: post #170
rdtsc wrote: post #26

I was wondering about a similar issue for zstd compression library. It has a similar BSD+Patentsfile thing. There is an issue with a related discussion about it going for more than a year: https://github.com/facebook/zstd/issues/335 Last update is interesting. Someone did a search and looked for any patents FB filed for and couldn't find any in last year. So somehow based on that they decided things are "OK". To quot…

They do not have to publish. The USPTO will publish patents (provisional or full) 18 months after filing, so -- at the very least -- one has to wait 18 months. It is also quite possible that facebook collects patents under a different name, e.g. "faceless intellect llc", a wholly owned subsidiary of Facebook. Or they may have bought patents that are essential for ZSTD from someone else who filed them independently. T…

> They do not have to publish. The USPTO will publish patents (provisional or full) 18 months after filing, so -- at the very least -- one has to wait 18 months.

Holy shit, what?! The US patent system means that you can infringe on patents that you had no way to know even existed at that point in time? How the fuck can someone look at this policy and think that it's in any way reasonable?!

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#197

Post by palunon »

rosser wrote: post #103
Lazare wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without ceding your license to use React. Ceding your license to use any patents Facebook may or may not have on React. There's a difference.

I'd call that a "distinction without a difference". Those are generally fallacious, and more often pedantic. Sure, you can still technically use React if, say, you're based somewhere that patents aren't particularly enforced. But if that's the case, why do you have patents in the first place ?

In many European countries (all of the EU ?), software patents are not recognized.

You may still have other kinds of patents, which are very much enforceable.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#199

Post by int_19h »

gruez wrote: post #106
objclxt wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off the top of my head big users of React include: * Apple (their entire dev docs site is built in it, and they've hosted Bay Area React user meet-ups) * Twitter (for their mobile web) * Microsoft (parts of Visual Studio use it) * Netflix (all over their frontend stack) ...as well as Dropbox, AirBnb, Venmo... So whilst I don't doubt you've discussed it with concerned counsel, there are huge corporations deploying Rea…

>* Microsoft (parts of Visual Studio use it) you mean vs code, which is a separate product from "visual studio"

VS (the big one, not VSCode) has a bunch of stuff in it written in HTML5/JS.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#200

Post by matharmin »

captainmuon wrote: post #151

I think this is an overreaction (pun accidental). There are two things here: The copyright license, and the patent grant. Copyright applies to the concrete implementation. You have to agree to the license to be subject to it, and to legally use the code. A potential patent applies to any implementation. Even if you write a clean-room clone of React, if it uses the same patent, Facebook has a patent claim. But that me…

> A potential patent applies to any implementation.

This is the point that most people seem to be missing, and it applies to much more than just React clones. If for Facebook has patents required for Virtual DOM, you are no better off if you use Vue.js or almost any other recent frontend framework. Just because you're using a project without the patents file doesn't mean those patents won't affect you.

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