Wikipedia blocked in Turkey • Hacker News Board

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#321

Post by mk89 » Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

biafra wrote: post #275

mk89 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that we should stop communicating from the top - and this is what some politicians tried to do (at least what some European politicians did, like the Dutch ones before the elections, when things escalated). However, for business interests, you simply can't ditch a country like Turkey[1]. Let's not forget that Bush's grandfather was also funding Nazi [2] (I would like to focus primarily on the years b…

It seems you are talking about Germany. Please name one neighbourhood in Germany "not accessible to the police".

I can name a few. For example Neukölln in Berlin, or some areas in Köln (like Kalk, Ossendorf, Chorweiler, Porz), or the north of Duisburg. You can find lots of references online - search for "no-go zone germany", or simply befriend a German policeman.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/nordrhein-westfalen-po...

https://www.derwesten.de/politik/in-problemvierteln-fuerchte...

All these are areas where policemen are afraid to work because they may get suddenly surrounded by 40-50 people. It's true, you can still access them, but then it doesn't mean you get out easily, hence they are not accessible.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#322

Post by BurningFrog » Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 4:32 PM UTC

sorenjan wrote: post #67

beloch wrote: post #31

I'm a canuck who has worked with Turks and has visited Turkey. They're a wonderful people from a beautiful country with a real problem of a person in power. Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, yet they produce alcohol and tolerate its consumption within their borders, even by their own people. Let that fact sink in for a moment. Erdogan is subverting the premier secular democracy of the Islamic world, but nobody seems…

Plenty of people care, but what are we supposed to do about it? Here in Europe Erdogan makes the headlines from time to time, right before the referendum he made several speeches where he called the politicians of multiple countries "descendants of nazis" and similar. Everybody knows that he cares more about suppressing the Kurds than ISIS. He holds Europe hostage by threatening to release large amounts of refugees i…

> He holds Europe hostage by threatening to release large amounts of refugees into Europe

This is one of the key facts of the situation.

Logically then, if the Syria disaster is solved, Erdogan loses a lot of his power. Or in other words, the crackdown of Turkey is part of the Syria conflict.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#323

Post by revelation » Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 4:34 PM UTC

sorenjan wrote: post #122

agumonkey wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should stop communicating from the top. Many problems right now are because heads of state, not necessarily people. Erdogan, Putin ... We should try to get real people to talk, about who they are, what they want (peace ? surely .. war ? not so sure). So peoples in every nation start to avoid the national/patriot filter when thinking and voting.

Real people rarely want war, they all want the same basic things: food and shelter, a good future for their kids, and to live in peace. This is universal over the whole world, unless they've had their minds poisoned by leaders with their own agendas, be it political or religious. However, most people also don't really care that much about other people, especially in other countries. So they elect people to handle tha…

Uhh, I'm not so sure. Look at all the people on here essentially clamoring for war with Russia over.. uhm, Russia supposedly releasing authentic emails showing their favorite party (TM) to be corrupt? I might have missed some details in all the cold war fervor.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#324

Post by 1001101 » Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 4:35 PM UTC

nebabyte wrote: post #113

forvelin wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a 49% in Turkey, and then there is 51%. 51 won and this happened.

We need to introduce some sort of minority action in democracy. The smaller pluralities should not be powerless against the majority... The problem there I suppose would be neutral arbitration. sigh

That's a great thought - I believe this is how democracy in the US used to work with more magnanimity and cooperation. Maybe I'm romanticizing, but I will think on how I can do my part to bring it to fruition.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#325

Post by cies » Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 4:37 PM UTC

nebabyte wrote: post #187

cies wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you mean by "decentralise"? Smaller-scope government at a local level? Anarcho-syndicalism? Yes. > I suspect many of the same issues would appear. Nope. When democracy is small enough, the leaders are very close to their voters. This changes everything. See small democratic countries, they do much better at being democratic! I think we can make it smaller, and have the democratic process at neighbourhood/vi…

So what was that you were saying about "trying to fix governments being pointless"? Or is this proposal not "a government" in your eyes. > Then go up from there with committees filled with delegates from the local-democracies This is sounding pretty much like a parliamentary or congressional system. (yes, congresses do exist that differ from the US')

> So what was that you were saying about "trying to fix governments being pointless"?

We should not dress up authoritarianism as something good. But some form of governing needs (and will anyway) to take place. I believe the best place for the center of this to happen in "close by", local, or small-scope.

> Or is this proposal not "a government" in your eyes.

It proposes a collection of most authorative governments, with layers above that are less authoritative and on-topic.

This is the opposite of a nation state, that tends to cluster power/tax-revenue at the top.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#326

Post by appetizer » Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 4:38 PM UTC

beloch wrote: post #31

I'm a canuck who has worked with Turks and has visited Turkey. They're a wonderful people from a beautiful country with a real problem of a person in power. Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, yet they produce alcohol and tolerate its consumption within their borders, even by their own people. Let that fact sink in for a moment. Erdogan is subverting the premier secular democracy of the Islamic world, but nobody seems…

People care, like watching a child throw a tempter tantrum in a restaurant kind of care. Us in the core west know we can shut it down if it ever becomes convenient to, so its just amusing to watch.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#327

Post by mythrwy » Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 4:40 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #320

mythrwy wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Because Hitler" can become the excuse for all kinds of nonsense though. Witness the Iraq war.

The Iraq war was not done "because Hitler". It was as clear as gold that it wasn't just about chemical weapons, but much rather about oil and funneling money into the US weapons industry. What the Iraq war (just as the Afghanistan war) has lacked and still lacks, unfortunately, is a post-war strategy similar to the Marshall plan...

While that's factually true I have to guess you may not be in the US or else possibly weren't listening to George Bush's speeches and reading the all the media hype leading up to the event.

There were no shortage of "Because Like Hitler" and "Neville Chamberlain" type arguments being bandied about and the situation was not even remotely similar.

Point being, this kind of rhetoric (in addition to not being a solid argument) is dangerous and easily slips into justification territory. (As we've seen). Cases should evaluated on an individual basis.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#328

Post by ptaipale » Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 4:43 PM UTC

taway_1212 wrote: post #317

ptaipale wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honest question, why should the west care about every single problem that happens anywhere in the world? In this case, West being West Europe: Because European Union decided to build a federal union which has freedom of movement inside, and no border controls on the outside. What happens in Turkey is directly impacting the security, safety and economy of all Europeans (except the British, who were lectured on their…

> Because European Union decided to build a federal union which has freedom of movement inside, and no border controls on the outside No border controls on the outside? Are you being hyperbolic or just misinformed? Of course there are border controls (their adequacy/efficiency is another matter).

The adequacy and efficiency, yes.

There are good border controls towards regions where they are not that necessary. For flight passengers from the United States, for instance. Schengen borders towards Russia are fairly solid in Norway and Finland, slightly less so but improving in Estonia, etc.

There is no effective control of entry across the Mediterranean; in fact, there is an ongoing operation which effectively works as a free taxi service for human traffickers who collect the money from passengers who are treated like cargo. The traffickers tow a rubber boat a few miles off the shore of Libya or Turkey, and leave the cargo to wait for a rescue ship with instructions to puncture the raft and expect to be picked up and taken to Europe.

Sometimes the rescue ship is out of capacity, so the people cannot be picked up, the punctured raft will sink and people drown, but this is no loss for the traffickers. We are told that we must go on with this because anything else would be "unhuman".

Upon entry, everyone has mysteriously lost their papers and everyone is admitted without any idea who they are, as long as they utter some code words.

From Turkey, people used to come across using flotation toys. Because EU couldn't get together an act of controlling the maritime border towards Turkey, the union negotiated a deal with Erdogan where Turkey acts as Europe's border control. Now EU is a hostage of Turkey because of this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/25/world/europe/turkey-recep...

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#329

Post by cies » Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 4:43 PM UTC

someguu wrote: post #18

cies wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you mean by "decentralise"? Smaller-scope government at a local level? Anarcho-syndicalism? Yes. > I suspect many of the same issues would appear. Nope. When democracy is small enough, the leaders are very close to their voters. This changes everything. See small democratic countries, they do much better at being democratic! I think we can make it smaller, and have the democratic process at neighbourhood/vi…

But, eventually those "leaders" you seem to trust will find an enemy and unite to "fight" it. I personally don't see why people even vote, I think the solution is to make sure the internet is protected from "leaders", not by voting and making temporary "rules" with the government, but by making sure it's global and decentralized. Also, keep in mind that your idea of government won't protect the internet forever.

> But, eventually those "leaders" you seem to trust will find an enemy and unite to "fight" it.

Hopefully the enemy within.

> Also, keep in mind that your idea of government won't protect the internet forever.

First, do most Turks want free or protected access? Lets assume they want free access. If they cannot have it it shows the system of gov't is not democratic enough (or they have "traded" their request in some way, but that's not the case now).

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#330

Post by zanny » Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 4:44 PM UTC

gkya wrote: post #24

cies wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you mean by "decentralise"? Smaller-scope government at a local level? Anarcho-syndicalism? Yes. > I suspect many of the same issues would appear. Nope. When democracy is small enough, the leaders are very close to their voters. This changes everything. See small democratic countries, they do much better at being democratic! I think we can make it smaller, and have the democratic process at neighbourhood/vi…

> All taxation and voting should happen on the lowest level. While I too am tinkering with these ideas, the trouble with this is that we need massive infrastucture work even outside the context of totalitarian self-promotion; and this is not achievable with small-scale local governments. Nowadays nobody is self-sufficient, as even the most simple things we use require material and labour from all over the world [1] t…

Nothing stops city states from collaborating to build a highway between themselves, where the participants divest the costs amongt all participants (preferably in order of whom benefits the most).

It is a negotiation. It is how underseas fiber cables are laid, how canals are navigated, how the seas and skies are shared.