UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears • Hacker News Board

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#321

Post by wildmusings » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 4:09 PM UTC

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #318

wildmusings wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stand by every single comment in this thread. The UK is doing well and I think they will continue to do so, fluctuations in the exchange rate and stock market notwithstanding. I'd stand by that even if they entered a small recession.

> The UK is doing well and I think they will continue to do so The likely dissolution of the political entity currently known as the UK, more formally the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" would preclude it "doing well", not so?

I don't think there's gonna be another referendum soon. The EU referendum was already on the table during the Scottish referendum. The people of Scotland knew the risk. Everyone was loudly saying that these were once-in-a-generation votes.

Now of course, if support for Scottish independence consistently polls at over 60% for years, that's a different story. But I think that pro-independence forces are likely to weaken as Brexit proves to have been a good move.

Or not, in which case England loses 5 million people (England is 53 million btw) and some oil. On the plus side, they'd shake off a chunk of the electorate that seems to be set on economic suicide by socialism.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#322

Post by sbmassey » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 4:34 PM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #238

genericpseudo wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't going to be a Britain to have that vote. Scotland is leaving and the Brexit vote has reraised the spectre of terrorism in Northern Ireland.

Maybe it's for the best. Why not let Scotland leave and make their own choices?

Definitely - an independent Scotland can get the chip off its shoulder, dust off the statues of Adam Smith and become a decent nation again, EU or no.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#323

Post by coroxout » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 4:36 PM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #317

mpweiher wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And for millions and millions of people it was shit. Utter shit. Credit card chomping, crappy zero hour job, minimum wage, second hand clothes, crappy car, no life insurance, no pension, crap. Yep. Except for one teeny weeny insignificantly minor detail: these things have nothing whatsoever to do with the EU, and everything to do with the austerity/de-industrialization policies of neo-liberal UK governments, primaril…

what other option was there? I'm genuinely interested. The vote card said IN and OUT. Pathetic? Name calling, wow that's low. I love how butt hurt you are. The more furious rich people are the better the decision feels.

There probably should have been some more options on the paper, seeing as how people voted Leave for many disparate reasons and with many disparate ideas (or no idea at all) of what to do instead, and there is no way to keep all of them happy.

In fact there may be no way to keep any of them happy, since apparently many of them voted Leave for impossible/EU-unrelated reasons: to keep non-EU immigration down; to spend money we won't even have on the NHS; because they don't like what the UK government has been doing and will keep doing outside the EU with even greater impunity, etc.

"Pathetic" 1. Arousing sadness, compassion, or sympathy, esp. through vulnerability or sadness; pitiable.

Seems fair enough. "Name-calling"?

"Rich people": I work for a university as support staff. I earn under the median UK wage and surely well under the median HN wage. We've had deeper and deeper cuts year on year for the past several years and post-Brexit an even bigger chunk of our budget looks like disappearing along with our best academics and researchers, not to mention other support staff, foreign language teachers/cataloguers/negotiators, etc. Education and research careers have been a route into the middle class for many and it's a shame to see that threatened - even more of a shame when the people who voted for it, the press, politicians have hardly even acknowledged it's a problem.

But have fun assuming that only rich people are interested in science or can get any benefit from cooperating with colleagues elsewhere in Europe...

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#324

Post by IanCal » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 4:45 PM UTC

lhnz wrote: post #133

tankenmate wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But of course that means staying in the EEA for the moment at least; which means freedom of movement, EU regulations, but now with much reduced influence... CETA for example took 5.5 years to negotiate and of course it still needs to be ratified. On the other hand if the UK leaves the EU and the EEA then under EU rules it will need to wait until it fully leaves before it can negotiate a CETA style trade agreement. In…

Freedom of movement is actually a fairly good thing, though. > EU regulations, but now without (sic) much reduced influence You are misinformed, please read '1. "No Say"' of 'The Case For The EEA Option' [0]: The next level of argument surrounding “no say” is that despite not having a vote in EU institutions, EEA countries have some ability to protect their own interests from EU law. They retain a “right of reservati…

> Freedom of movement is actually a fairly good thing, though.

I fully agree, however it was an extremely large part of the "leave" campaign.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#325

Post by sbmassey » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 4:56 PM UTC

antientropic wrote: post #213

sievebrain wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's why the EU is doomed and will be gone within a decade no matter what they do now. It is a fundamentally unattractive entity. The people who run it have never even tried to combat rising anti-EU feeling across the continent, as they believe the EU is inevitable and unstoppable, so why bother trying to make it more popular. Now it's probably too late: they've become so gripped by groupthink they can't refor…

> It is a fundamentally unattractive entity. This presumably explains why 28 countries have joined and there are still more waiting to join. > The people who run it (...) believe the EU is inevitable and unstoppable The people who run it are for the most part the elected leaders of the member states, who are no strangers to euro-skepticism, since they never fail to exploit it when it suits them (e.g. to deflect criti…

That dynamic is exactly why it is unattractive - rather than having a single government responsible for running the country, you get organisations that resort to passing the buck whenever anything bad happens. In the US and Germany, this was eventually solved by putting all the power in the Federal government, but this is fundamentally impossible in the EU, because there is no agreement on how government shoukd work between the different cultures in Europe. The EU should have remained a customs union, in a better world.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#326

Post by tremon » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

ckinnan wrote: post #202

DoubleGlazing wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growth non-existent? Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this would suggest otherwise... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union#...

Real per capita GDP was 26,200 euros in 2007 and is 26,300 today. After 10 years of EU policymaking and an extraordinary borrowing spree, nothing to show for it. http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&l...

That same table is showing a GDP rise from 23,400 to 26,200 between 2001 and 2008. Are those rises not attributable to EU policymaking then?

In the same time period, US GDP rose from $49,979 to $51,486 [1]. But it shows the same drop as the EU figures: 2014 was the first year that GDP was higher than 2007 (the same in 2015 for the EU). Maybe there is a common factor that could explain the slump in both the US and EU GDP figures since roughly 2008? Or did EU policymaking also cause the US GDP to go down?

[1] http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-per-capita

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#327

Post by monk_e_boy » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 5:30 PM UTC

coroxout wrote: post #323

monk_e_boy wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what other option was there? I'm genuinely interested. The vote card said IN and OUT. Pathetic? Name calling, wow that's low. I love how butt hurt you are. The more furious rich people are the better the decision feels.

There probably should have been some more options on the paper, seeing as how people voted Leave for many disparate reasons and with many disparate ideas (or no idea at all) of what to do instead, and there is no way to keep all of them happy. In fact there may be no way to keep any of them happy, since apparently many of them voted Leave for impossible/EU-unrelated reasons: to keep non-EU immigration down; to spend…

Oh I get it now - you get money from the EU. Haha, fuck me. You couldn't care less about either argument, you just want your money to keep flowing.

Shit man, I feel sorry for you. Welcome to the real world.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#328

Post by coroxout » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 5:59 PM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #327

coroxout wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There probably should have been some more options on the paper, seeing as how people voted Leave for many disparate reasons and with many disparate ideas (or no idea at all) of what to do instead, and there is no way to keep all of them happy. In fact there may be no way to keep any of them happy, since apparently many of them voted Leave for impossible/EU-unrelated reasons: to keep non-EU immigration down; to spend…

Oh I get it now - you get money from the EU. Haha, fuck me. You couldn't care less about either argument, you just want your money to keep flowing. Shit man, I feel sorry for you. Welcome to the real world.

"Welcome to the real world" - I know, right! Though I should point out that this is my first post on this thread, so I'm not the people you were talking to earlier. Perhaps they have reasons you'd like better.

And I still think it's a crying shame to flush science, research and education in this country down the toilet just for the sake of waving two fingers at some unknown bureaucrats and uncaring politicians, whether I get paid or not.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#329

Post by SideburnsOfDoom » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 6:10 PM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #321

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The UK is doing well and I think they will continue to do so The likely dissolution of the political entity currently known as the UK, more formally the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" would preclude it "doing well", not so?

I don't think there's gonna be another referendum soon. The EU referendum was already on the table during the Scottish referendum. The people of Scotland knew the risk. Everyone was loudly saying that these were once-in-a-generation votes. Now of course, if support for Scottish independence consistently polls at over 60% for years, that's a different story. But I think that pro-independence forces are likely to weake…

> I don't think there's gonna be another referendum soon.

> The EU referendum was already on the table during the Scottish referendum. The people of Scotland knew the risk.

Incorrect, it was sold as the other way around: Scotland must stay in the UK or it might be out of the EU. You are detached from reality. A second Scottish referendum is likely.

1) https://next.ft.com/content/1219f41c-4456-11e6-9b66-0712b387...

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#330

Post by mpweiher » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 6:17 PM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #317

mpweiher wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And for millions and millions of people it was shit. Utter shit. Credit card chomping, crappy zero hour job, minimum wage, second hand clothes, crappy car, no life insurance, no pension, crap. Yep. Except for one teeny weeny insignificantly minor detail: these things have nothing whatsoever to do with the EU, and everything to do with the austerity/de-industrialization policies of neo-liberal UK governments, primaril…

what other option was there? I'm genuinely interested. The vote card said IN and OUT. Pathetic? Name calling, wow that's low. I love how butt hurt you are. The more furious rich people are the better the decision feels.

So when you are upset with a specific person, do you also randomly punch someone else who happens to be nearby?

If you are unhappy with what the UK government is doing, and the things you say you are unhappy about are 100% UK gov, not EU, then the time to "vote the bums out" is the UK general election.

Really having a hard time figuring out what you were/are trying to accomplish.