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No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

polygon.com

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Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#311

Post by ahris »

tomp wrote: post #118
chiubaka wrote: post #78

Wow, I'm really glad I read this. I'm making a video game myself right now, and this such a relevant issue that I never even thought about. It never occurred to me that women in the gaming industry were mistreated, but it kind of makes sense-- video games often cater to young males, and often the easiest way to cater to those young males is by over-sexualizing women. I'm not going to say that that strategy doesn't wo…

> I think the over-sexualization of women in games and in other places often makes men think with their penises instead of their brains. Why do you think so? Personally, I think it's the other way around - the cause is that people (not just men) respond better to "shallow" things - i.e. pretty things/landscapes/photos/people, which is why marketers/companies create things that are pretty. If your target audience is m…

But the target demographic for games doesn't just have to be males. There was a great piece by Tracy Lien detailing the history of video games and how marketing is the direct cause of the stereotype that video games are for males. Video games don't inherently appeal to a specific gender. Indie games, in general, are a great example of how games can have gender inclusive appeal.

Anyways, here is her article. I really enjoyed it and it's a great piece if you want to learn more about video game culture.

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-a...

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#312

Post by ahris »

tomp wrote: post #118
chiubaka wrote: post #78

Wow, I'm really glad I read this. I'm making a video game myself right now, and this such a relevant issue that I never even thought about. It never occurred to me that women in the gaming industry were mistreated, but it kind of makes sense-- video games often cater to young males, and often the easiest way to cater to those young males is by over-sexualizing women. I'm not going to say that that strategy doesn't wo…

> I think the over-sexualization of women in games and in other places often makes men think with their penises instead of their brains. Why do you think so? Personally, I think it's the other way around - the cause is that people (not just men) respond better to "shallow" things - i.e. pretty things/landscapes/photos/people, which is why marketers/companies create things that are pretty. If your target audience is m…

But the target demographic for games doesn't just have to be males. There was a great piece by Tracy Lien detailing the history of video games and how marketing is the direct cause of the stereotype that video games are for males. Video games don't inherently appeal to a specific gender. Indie games, in general, are a great example of how games can have gender inclusive appeal.

Anyways, here is her article. I really enjoyed it and it's a great piece if you want to learn more about video game culture.

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-a...

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#313

Post by ahris »

Zikes wrote: post #192
sp332 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, actually, I agree with some of this. I didn't think labeling that behavior as "primal" was accurate or helpful. It's certainly social, and bound to be more or less strong depending on the person and situation. Calling it primal is defeatist, plus it assumes that men have to fight against their base nature to be decent people. On the other hand, I don't think the article says men don't get rape threats, just that…

> Also I think society really doesn't understand how sexist it is. Oh I absolutely agree with you there. This article is largely sexist against men, but few people are willing to admit it because it's buried in a legitimate rant about sexism against women.

This writer has had negative experiences in the game industry due to her gender and is hoping to change that. She is not placing blame on all males. She is merely relating her personal experience where there happens to be a correlation between the negativity and males. Maybe you're reading the tone incorrectly. Her writing is pretty abrasive.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#314

Post by Zikes »

ahris wrote: post #313
Zikes wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also I think society really doesn't understand how sexist it is. Oh I absolutely agree with you there. This article is largely sexist against men, but few people are willing to admit it because it's buried in a legitimate rant about sexism against women.

This writer has had negative experiences in the game industry due to her gender and is hoping to change that. She is not placing blame on all males. She is merely relating her personal experience where there happens to be a correlation between the negativity and males. Maybe you're reading the tone incorrectly. Her writing is pretty abrasive.

I don't think you've read any of the previous comments in this thread. If you'll go back up to this[1] comment you'll see that "tone" has as much to do with this argument as the brand of laptop she used to write the article in the first place.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8070340

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#315

Post by Zikes »

laserDinosaur wrote: post #284
Zikes wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypocrisy is saying men should not tell women how to feel, and then following that up with an entire article telling men how to feel and behave. Pretty sure I didn't imagine that.

And now you are on hacker news telling people how they should feel. How hypocritical of you.

Today I learned that calling out people's sexist propaganda is actually telling people how they should feel.

I am enlightened, you should feel proud of yourself.

(whoops, sorry)

(not really)

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#316

Post by tomp »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #304
tomp wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with all that you said, the thing is that I don't think that racist jokes mean that someone is a racist, and joking about one's girlfriend doesn't make a man sexist. I don't think those make for a toxic culture, only for a relaxed culture. But then again, I'm from Europe - I understand that Americans are quite a bit more puritanical about certain things (e.g. sex, cursing and race), and maybe less abo…

"I don't think that racist jokes mean that someone is a racist," what else could it possibly mean?

That a joke is funny because it plays on the racial stereotypes in an unexpected way. For example:

"What is a game called where a bunch of white guys are chasing a black guy? Golf."

I think the joke would be less funny if the races were reversed (and a different, but appropriate game was used).

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#317

Post by tomp »

ahris wrote: post #311
tomp wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the over-sexualization of women in games and in other places often makes men think with their penises instead of their brains. Why do you think so? Personally, I think it's the other way around - the cause is that people (not just men) respond better to "shallow" things - i.e. pretty things/landscapes/photos/people, which is why marketers/companies create things that are pretty. If your target audience is m…

But the target demographic for games doesn't just have to be males. There was a great piece by Tracy Lien detailing the history of video games and how marketing is the direct cause of the stereotype that video games are for males. Video games don't inherently appeal to a specific gender. Indie games, in general, are a great example of how games can have gender inclusive appeal. Anyways, here is her article. I really…

Obviously. E.g. The Sims was probably targeted more at girls/women than at boys/men. But that is irrelevant, different games are targeted at different sectors of the market, and some are targeted specifically at men (violent games come to mind).

I would think that the marketing of video games is more connected to the fact that in the beginning, most games were developed by males (simply because most programmers/geeks were men, developing games that they would enjoy themselves).

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#318

Post by mperd »

paulhauggis wrote: post #308
enraged_camel wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not quite true. Women are much more likely to receive threats because they are more vulnerable. Just like bullies pick on those they perceive to be weak, abusers target those they perceive to be easy targets.

"Women are much more likely to receive threats because they are more vulnerable" So you are saying that women are different and need to be treated in a different way than men? I thought we were trying to avoid this and treat women the same as men?

I think we should treat someone that's receiving death and rape threats on a daily basis differently than someone who does not. That we should treat someone that's more likely to be raped or killed differently than someone who is not that likely. And because the people receiving death and rape threats are also the people more likely getting raped and killed, that makes something considered as "taunting" much more real.

You are right, we should avoid treating women differently than men, that's something we're all able to agree on. That does not mean that men and women in our societies are treated the same as of now.

Women should not be considered as more vulnerable, yet that's how they are perceive, and that's also what they are being taught:

- don't fight, don't fight back

- always smile and be pretty

- don't get angry, that just shows you're hysterical/on your period/pregnant and hormone-crazy

- agree with the males, especially when they make sexist jokes, that makes you really cool

- don't be a feminist and try to improve your condition

We should not treat women differently than men, but letting society/communities/bullies target one group more than the other and then refusing to acknowledge it or to empathize with it, seems like a convenient way of not taking responsability, as a society/community, and not try to improve ourselves.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#319

Post by mperd »

cheez wrote: post #175
enraged_camel wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not quite true. Women are much more likely to receive threats because they are more vulnerable. Just like bullies pick on those they perceive to be weak, abusers target those they perceive to be easy targets.

Stats or GTFO.

Not everything in life can be apprehended through stats, and sometimes we should be able to simply acknowledge the fact that others are having a hard time because of the way we're shaping our society.

But anyways, here's something that's been posted earlier : "In 2006, researchers from the University of Maryland set up a bunch of fake online accounts and then dispatched them into chat rooms. Accounts with feminine usernames incurred an average of 100 sexually explicit or threatening messages a day. Masculine names received 3.7."

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/women-ar...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060731153456.ht...

PS: feel free to dismiss these numbers.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#320

Post by mperd »

Zikes wrote: post #293
mperd wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comments in this thread are about dismissing the message of the article, by reversing the roles (you talk about men being "harassed" by this article), by using rhetoric analysis (which looks to me like an excuse to share two links that have nothing to do with the article). Sure, anyone can pick flaws in an article, especially in a piece of opinion like this one. One could go on and on about how this is biased, h…

I have not once in my comments on this thread said that women do not face harassment, which is the stated message of the article. What I have done, is point out the many, many ways in which that message has been used as a front to put forth sexist and propagandist messages intended to disparage men. Those two links directly follow my statement calling out the unacceptable assertions the article's author put forth tha…

Why I don't understand when I read your comment is the generalization over "men". These articles are not about how each and every single man harrassed, raped or killed a woman. It's the other way around: it's women saying "I've been harrassed, threatenned, or raped, in my life: is this a coincidence that it was always by men or is there something broken in our society". I think that generalization over "all men" comes from one's identification with the harassers (because you are a man, not because you are an harasser), not from the article itself. Feeling accused and then trying to dismiss such calls for help is really counter-productive, especially if you agree that women face harassment.

I don't get how you take a testimony of people enduring such violence and turn it into men being the real victims of such articles. "Men are much more likely to be accused of rape and murder", as someone said earlier. Can't you see how twisted that is? That's rape culture 101 by the way: putting the focus on how the attacker is a victim since he'll be facing society disapproval/lose job/go to prison.

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