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No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

polygon.com

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Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#71

Post by Zikes »

arrrg wrote: post #63
Zikes wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good to see that sloganeering and thought-terminating cliches will drive what could have been a proper debate on the issue. I guess there's no room at all for dissenting opinions, especially when they point out hypocrisies or bring counter evidence to the discussion.

What hypocrisies? There are none. You are imagining those. When there is something you cannot understand it’s proper to address that with “Men just don’t …” That’s ok. It’s no claim that all men act disgustingly, it’s only a claim that men don’t understand. That’s also completely unrelated to the “What can you – as a man – do to help?” part. I mean, where is the connection there. You are saying very confusing things.

Hypocrisy is saying men should not tell women how to feel, and then following that up with an entire article telling men how to feel and behave.

Pretty sure I didn't imagine that.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#72

Post by gknoy »

coldtea wrote: post #36
Iftheshoefits wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a nontrivial difference between the modes of attack you note that work better on men and those that work better on women to achieve a psychological impact. The difference is significant--for women, the difference is a matter of (literally) being physically assaulted or even killed. Men face that kind of threat far less from attacks against our masculinity, loyalty, etc. The article notes this. Women shouldn'…

> The article notes this. Women shouldn't be expected to distance themselves from a very real threat of physical violence, which men simply don't face to anything close to the same degree. Mean deal with threats of physical violence all the time. Including actual attacks, which is far more common between men. They just don't deal with rape threats/attacks.

What the hell kind of environment are you in where you get threats of physical violence "all the time"?

I've NEVER been threatened with any sort of violence in a professional or educational context. I've never witnessed threats of violence in my work environment. I might be just lucky to have always worked at awesome places (I am), but even when executives or other engineers were angry, I never saw any kind of threats made which would have made me worry about my physical safety.

The internet is different, in that there are some people that just want to spew filth everywhere, but even then it sure seems like women get more directed at them.

As a man, I definitely feel like I face both fewer attacks, and lesser degrees of attacks, online and offline, than a woman would. If your professional environment includes threats to your personal safety (or others), it's not a "professional" environment, and you should make an exit a priority to somewhere that treats you with respect.

If you see people making threats that you feel are actual threats, call the police. If you feel they're joking, tell them that it's not funny, and in shamefully poor taste.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#73

Post by tux1968 »

It's sometimes sad to look at our social maturity or lack thereof. But articles like this are important to force us to look at ourselves. The problems highlighted in the article are a result of the anonymity of the internet and the immaturity and natural aggressiveness of young men. It seems we're fighting our primitive selves, and for that there are no easy answers.

Would just like to say though, that most men are not the perpetrators of such acts, and in fact are quite often victims of men like these in one way or another. Women have many natural allies amongst men.

Anyway, it seems to me that such behavior wont survive being exposed to daylight, and that over time progress will be made.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#74

Post by Gracana »

hnnewguy wrote: post #52
Jemaclus wrote: post #31

I read articles like this, and I think to myself, "Damn, I'm glad I'm not one of those guys." Then every time I see a photo of Marissa Mayer, I think, "Damn, she's hot." And then I hate myself for making that my first thought instead of something more equal like, "Damn, she's accomplished and brilliant" like I do when I see a photo of Robert Downey Jr or Idris Elba or Benedict Cumberbatch. But no, if it's a woman, my…

> I think, "Damn, she's hot." And then I hate myself for making that my first thought It's pretty much my first thought when I see any woman (and some men). I can't help it, it's the product of us being animals. Who cares. I don't feel guilty, and certainly don't hate myself for it. > I hope I don't have a daughter. Oh brother...

Yeah, the problem is not that having those feelings, it's acting entitled to force those desires onto other people (in whatever form that may take) that's the issue.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#75

Post by eli »

cheez wrote: post #58
eli wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying... but I think you're getting downvoted because it's dangerously close to victim-blaming. No matter what they wrote, nobody ever deserves graphic threats of rape and murder. And, c'mon, by your definition pretty much anyone with an internet presence and an opinion is a public figure, and therefore a "target." I don't think that's a helpful way to approach the problem.

In the area of competitive sports, it is pretty common to receive death threats for athletes who do not perform well. I'm not saying it's right. It's not. I'm saying that the reader needs to tease apart the two.

Tease what apart?

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#76

Post by lotsofmangos »

eli wrote: post #19
EarthLaunch wrote: post #6

What should a game studio to do counter this and make its employees safe from it?

I think that's a good question, but what practical things can an employer do here? The harassment isn't really happening "at" work, it's coming in through tumblr and personal blogs. And (I hope!!) the people sending these threats are not other employees.

The employer has more resources than the employee. Lawyers and private investigators would be a start. If I ran a company and found out my customers were sending death threats to my staff, I wouldn't care where it occurred and would throw a good amount of resources at finding out who they were, having them prosecuted, and then publicising the results as a sort of modern version of putting heads on spikes.

edit - though I would go to the person making the threats and give them the opportunity to make amends first before involving any level of publicity or authority.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#77

Post by dictum »

Jemaclus wrote: post #31

I read articles like this, and I think to myself, "Damn, I'm glad I'm not one of those guys." Then every time I see a photo of Marissa Mayer, I think, "Damn, she's hot." And then I hate myself for making that my first thought instead of something more equal like, "Damn, she's accomplished and brilliant" like I do when I see a photo of Robert Downey Jr or Idris Elba or Benedict Cumberbatch. But no, if it's a woman, my…

> Then every time I see a photo of Marissa Mayer, I think, "Damn, she's hot." And then I hate myself for making that my first thought instead of something more equal like, "Damn, she's accomplished and brilliant" like I do when I see a photo of Robert Downey Jr or Idris Elba or Benedict Cumberbatch. But no, if it's a woman, my first thought is about her looks instead of... well, instead of anything else.

I wouldn't be so apologetic about it. I don't know your sexual orientation, but it's natural to not think of men as hot (or only think it as a second thought) when you're not sexually attracted to men.

You don't magically acknowledge Mayer's accomplishments and abilities better if you force yourself and others to not think of her attractiveness.

Just don't make someone's attractiveness their only accomplishment. It's easier said than done, but to illustrate, it's okay to think "Damn, she's hot" when you see a photo of a woman, but it's not okay to write a profile that focuses on her attractiveness and distracts from her other attributes; it's okay to think a man is hot, but it's not okay to tell your coworkers about it.

Be careful not to confuse systemic sexism with personal sexuality.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#78

Post by chiubaka »

Wow, I'm really glad I read this.

I'm making a video game myself right now, and this such a relevant issue that I never even thought about. It never occurred to me that women in the gaming industry were mistreated, but it kind of makes sense-- video games often cater to young males, and often the easiest way to cater to those young males is by over-sexualizing women.

I'm not going to say that that strategy doesn't work on me (I am, myself, a young male), but I am going to say that I don't think it's right for games and other media to capitalize so heavily on that. I think the over-sexualization of women in games and in other places often makes men think with their penises instead of their brains. They say and do stupid things that they really never should. It's inexcusable, and it's a two-way street: men should know better, and mass media shouldn't be encouraging that kind of thinking. I also don't think it's right that someone who just wants to follow their dreams in the gaming industry (or really any industry) should ever experience what any of the case studies in this article experienced.

I'm not sure what I can do to help here, but if I find a way, I hope I can! Right now I'm working on a gaming startup with a couple of my best friends and, at the very least, we have made a commitment to ourselves to never resort to over-sexualizing women in order to advertise our game (many similar games do, and it frustrates me). I'm also going to make a conscious commitment right now to be aware the way I behave around women in the gaming industry and make sure I'm doing my job to help stop the issue, not propagate it.

Thank you so much for sharing this.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#79

Post by Gracana »

JonnieCache wrote: post #32

Ironically, "woman is the nigger of the world" is a quote from Yoko Ono and the title of a song she did with John Lennon; it was meant to be a piece of feminist sloganeering. Somebody got a bit confused.

It's still kind of a terrible statement in its original context, like, that is the opposite of intersectionality.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#80

Post by oldmanjay »

frio wrote: post #47
coldtea wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "its banter, get over it. Men deal with it all the time". Just shows how deep the problem goes I guess. Why, isn't it true? I mean, if one's going to argue one is much worse than the other, then some citation is needed. Empirically, men don't (usually) get rape threats. But they do get death threats. And they don't usually get sexual comments on their looks. But they do get comments that they're "fat", "dorky", "id…

> "Women are the niggers of gender," the email said. "If you killed yourself, I wouldn’t even fuck the corpse." That's the first line of the article. That's banter? That's equivalent to being "fat" or "dorky"?

Depending on the recipient's emotional state, being called "fat" or "dorky" can be worse. There's simply no valid objective way to decide the equivalency or lack thereof.
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