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Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

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Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#311

Post by graue »

derleth wrote: post #285
graue wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. This is a perfect example of how restrictive gender norms (or, what some might call "patriarchy") can harm men as well as women, and are something we all need to care about.

> This is a perfect example of how restrictive gender norms (or, what some might call "patriarchy") can harm men as well as women And this is why I hate the term "patriarchy" in this context: It implies men always get the best of it, there are no downsides for males, and therefore we should be dismissive of male problems. I know this isn't what academic feminists think. It is, however, what a disturbing number of peo…

Yup. Male privilege exists and is real (and unfair), yet it is also true that gender norms can harm men. It's a shame so many folks act like the truth of one of those statements disproves the other. I guess the combined statement is too subtle to fit in a sound bite or rallying cry.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#312

Post by djt »

edw519 wrote: post #260
[deleted] wrote: post #104

[deleted]

I may or may not have something to say about this, but not here, and not now. Can we please just let the family grieve? We are the family.

I'll be honest, I thought the same thing as Ed originally.

It's a tragic story and I'm sure there is much to learn but let the family grieve rather than make click bait and throw people to the wolves ( ironically what this article is commenting on)

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#313

Post by thaumaturgy »

citricsquid wrote: post #298
thaumaturgy wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If everyone took the line you're talking about, "I don't know the full story (because nobody ever can) so I'm not going to pass any judgement"... sigh. I never said that. I have no idea how you got from "comment publicly" to "pass judgement".

I think I'm misunderstanding the point you're making, I'm not much good at interpreting things. From what I understand of your comment: That is what is wrong with saying, "just accept the consequences", when you have no damn idea what the consequences are. I think you're saying that he shouldn't have passed judgement because he wasn't aware of the situation, although now reading your emphasis on " "comment publicly"…

> I suspect you may have meant that edw519 is at fault for his specific action (commenting that he thought Aaron should accept the consequences) not for thinking that Aaron should have accepted the consequences?

Yes, exactly, with the caveat that I'm absolutely not putting Ed "at fault" for anything here -- I'm talking about comments like that one, in general.

Everybody judges things, we on HN perhaps most of all. That's fine, it's part of our nature. However, we really need to think it over before we declare our judgement in a comment on a public forum, especially when it's likely that we aren't fully aware of the situation we're judging.

> If that's the case then my comment will not have been particularly relevant, sorry about that.

Hey man, no worries. Glad we got it sorted.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#314

Post by dennisgorelik »

kamakazizuru wrote: post #172
shock wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's your defense? "He didn't know!"? Try that in a court of law.

his point is pretty clear @tptacek - he's saying that just because edw519 didnt know the facts - doesnt make it okay for him to have been a caustic douche back then.

Please taste your own medicine.

Your comment is way more aggressive than the comments tptacek and edw519 made 119 days ago.

What if your comment gets upvoted and then tptacek or edw519 end up with suicide -- who would you be then?

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#315

Post by Mz »

dyno12345 wrote: post #239
nostrademons wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely certain that Aaron knew he was doing something wrong, or, for that matter, whether he was in fact doing something wrong. It seems he made little effort to cover his tracks and pretty much acted out in the open. And from what I've heard from friends who've met him in person - Aaron was brilliant, idealistic, a nice guy, and hopelessly naive about how the world actually works.

If he didn't think he was doing anything wrong, why didn't he just ask permission?

Maybe you have heard of The Underground Railroad? Or "Separate but equal" policies and the movements which nonviolently opposed them? Or the United States of America, which was born of disagreement with the rules of the time?

Laws and rules are written by humans. Sometimes other humans don't agree with the rules as they are currently and try to make the world a better place. Sometimes they succeed. Sometimes they fail.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#316

Post by anthonyb »

rayiner wrote: post #197
angrycoder wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An honest appraisal? That is one way of looking at it. Another way is he threw out a giant derogatory 'Meh' to someone asking for help. Does he bear responsibility for what happened to Aaron? No, but it is also not hard to see how the top ranked comment from a respected member didn't carry some weight in how people perceived Aaron and his situation. The big take away here is that words matter and maybe if you don't h…

This is raging hindsight bias all over the place. "Next time you feel like making a 'meh' post, just say nothing at all?" Please.

Well, hopefully the next time that you feel like making a 'meh' comment, you will at least consider whether you're making a positive contribution.

Ed made a comment that was pretty harsh, although true given the information available at the time, and is now being singled out by Techcrunch and the rest of the HN community. Of course, in fine HN tradition everybody is now jumping on Ed in exactly the same way that he jumped on Aaron at the time.

I keep remembering Tim Bray's adage that "A change in perspective is worth 40 IQ points." The average HN user has 40 IQ points more now than Ed when he wrote that comment - I don't think they have more than 40 over the current Ed.

Also note that tptacek seems to have been driven away too - hopefully not permanently.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#318

Post by amputect »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #306
amputect wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too disagree with a posted link, and therefore earnestly believe that it should be censored so nobody can see it. Sincerely, the church of scientology

Are you trying to build 1984 society here?

I was being sarcastic, to highlight what i viewed as the absurdity of the parent comment. I'm sorry if that didn't come through. Unless YOU were being sarcastic and -I- failed to get it...

Oh god I don't know what's real anymore. Help, I'm trapped in a sarcasm factory.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#319

Post by grandalf »

Mz wrote: post #228
grandalf wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not merely mentally ill. Mental health in general should be taken more seriously. Many of our institutional systems (schools, prisons, etc.) are not conducive to habits that promote good mental health. Please be assured I am not dismissive of the importance of it. Also, people can have lapses in their mental health and then recover. There are also most certainly lots of factors that can push people to their limits. I…

I have a genetic disorder. At the time I attempted suicide, I was undiagnosed. In part for that reason, I ended up with severe low blood sugar while also under severe social duress. The short version is that relatives who knew the man I was arguing with had molested me as a child were telling me to "behave" instead of telling him to stfu. The severe low blood sugar interfered with my plans to slash my wrists. Had I b…

Severe duress often cannot be clearly distinguished from "mental illness"

I 100% agree with this in terms of its accuracy in describing the symptoms. And I do not think mental illness should be stigmatized any more than other illnesses should be (which is not at all).

The key though is that once mental illness occurs, rationality goes out the window. To a large extent causality goes out the window. You can't persuade a clinically depressed person to cheer up using a rational argument, the brain chemistry is going to overrule your rationality.

So my intent in my initial comment was to draw a distinction between Aaron's explainable behavior (that which was derived from his rational process) and his unexplainable behavior (that which was derived from his brain chemistry getting out of whack and his conclusion that taking his own life was a good decision).

I realize my sentiment ignores the possibility that the suicide was a direct and rational response to the prosecutors' tactics.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#320

Post by thoughtcriminal »

Lets face it, HN and similar discussion sites bring out the worst in some people, including me.

I'm not going to comment on Ed's unfortunate statements because I've been an asshat to people in the past too.

It's a terrible thing when you don't have the opportunity to apologise later.

I'm sorry for all parties involved.

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