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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#311

Post by shimman »

bojan wrote: post #257
philipallstar wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up in an era of European unity and American primacy European unity works well in a world of mostly-stable populations. Having mass migrations from large, relatively empty countries, to pretty full ones, is going to make the full ones increasingly expensive to make housing for, to power, and to water.

[flagged]

Does EU have the USA problem where most farmers are basically sharecroppers where they are mandated where they can buy their seed, buy their fertilizers, where they buy their chicks/sows/calfs, what equipment they can buy, how they can repair their equipment, where they can sell their crops, and at what specific prices all from a single undemocratic corporation?

In the USA it's basically corporations that run everything and drive the farmers into poverty where said corporations can then buy their land and rely on undocumented workers to keep the abuse going.

From the outside EU farmers seem to have better labor relations, but don't know.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#312

Post by JumpCrisscross »

rayiner wrote: post #254
stymaar wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody in Switzerland is worried about the population growing due to birthrate. This referendum is about stopping immigration (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth).

> (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth). Is that true? Switzerland's foreign-born population was under 5% around WWII. Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then?

> Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then?

In 1940, Switzerland’s GDP/capita was 2.9x [EDIT: the world average]; it peaked at 4.4x in 2000 and is now 3.8x [1]. (It increases linearly, long term, from the mid 20s until 2000.)

Relative to Western Europe, Switzerland was 1.6x in 1950, about the same as today.

[1] https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/relea...

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#314

Post by tpholland »

bluebarbet wrote: post #290
wat10000 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get hard working and low crime, but why does homogeneity make a country rich?

Because it favors social cohesion and social trust, which are strongly correlated with economic success. Americans are reflexively thinking of race, but that's entirely incidental and basically irrelevant.

But Switzerland emphatically does not have a homogenous population. It has an exceptionally diverse population, linguistically, religiously and culturally. And yet as you say it has an exceptional record when it comes to cohesion and social trust. Living the dream!

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#315

Post by jazz9k »

stymaar wrote: post #199
rayiner wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> benefits from diverse cultures You mean "benefits from increased population," right? Because isn't the whole theory that people are the same? If so, you're just adding new people who are exactly the same as the existing people. So the only benefits come from having more people, or more people with certain skills (if you're filtering based on that).

Nobody in Switzerland is worried about the population growing due to birthrate. This referendum is about stopping immigration (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth).

[flagged]

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#316

Post by latency-guy2 »

_trampeltier wrote: post #201

The question is not wrong, but the answer is. Here in Switzerlands middle land, the streets and trains are very crowded, not just during peek hours. On the other hand, it's already now hard to find people for almost any kind of work.

> On the other hand, it's already now hard to find people for almost any kind of work.

Why is it hard? Can't find a pick from the ~3% unemployment rate? That's approx 100-200k people, are you sure you can't find a person in that selection?

Maybe you're asking a bit much for standards that you are weakly attempting at a defense or justification.

This argument without any other qualifications reads to me as whinging that you're not getting everything you want. So lower your standards, offer more pay, or just move to a different country.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#317

Post by oytis »

qingcharles wrote: post #300
oytis wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think at least in Germany it's not true - among people coming to Germany there are more refugees of various kinds than professionals

These things aren't mutually-exclusive, though.

Technically true, but I don't think anyone tracks education levels of refugees.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#318

Post by kakacik »

Schiendelman wrote: post #158
bapo wrote: post #146

Swiss here and able to vote. In fact, just posted my voting letter today, before taking a 1h bike ride through the biggest city in Switzerland, having lots of space and freedom biking around in our beautiful city. When taking the train to my parents house, I pass several farms and landly smaller cities. Alot of free space in between those, train mostly has spare seats, depending on rush hour timings. There usually ar…

It's not just the state - it's your neighbors pushing the same building restrictions as the rest of the developed world, where people say "I don't want another neighbor next to me", which results in too few apartments for even the existing people's children...

You should check Geneva then - they are building apartment buildings like crazy in past 5 years. Too much if you ask me - in very center, almost every small park or green spot is now 6 story concrete building. Only the biggest protected parks are untouched. City is visibly and permanently degrading into concrete field. Weirdly schizophrenic move - they try to keep pushing bike lanes everywhere, even where not safe to share the road, yet they also remove greenery and trees. I guess the money is too juicy. But not to just bash - they build on outskirts too.

Switzerland as a country usually strikes good balance between various extremes, much better than US or EU countries do. I have no doubt they will work it out, not ideally, but better than most. Immigration they tackled much better than rest of Europe for example.

And for the vote - its 1:1 Brexit. Vote for capping, damage your long term prosperity, and those unpopular jobs still will need to be staffed, or country will work worse, be dirtier etc. And if one can earn cleaning streets or putting stuff in shop shelves as much as cca doctor in France (with higher costs of life, but it doesn't have to be extreme), the amount of people willing to try coming and working is basically endless.

The idea one can freeze time and keep the country as some idealized image from their childhood (without the nasty stuff that happened ie in 70s to orphaned kids en masse, aka Verdingkinder), one would have to become second North Korea. Everything changes these days, massively and quickly. Dictators won't be sending their kids to study here under false names anymore, would they.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#319

Post by [deleted] »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #312
rayiner wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth). Is that true? Switzerland's foreign-born population was under 5% around WWII. Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then?

> Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then? In 1940, Switzerland’s GDP/capita was 2.9x [EDIT: the world average]; it peaked at 4.4x in 2000 and is now 3.8x [1]. (It increases linearly, long term, from the mid 20s until 2000.) Relative to Western Europe, Switzerland was 1.6x in 1950, about the same as today. [1] https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/relea...

[deleted]

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#320

Post by yerich »

throw-the-towel wrote: post #182
Schiendelman wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's almost laughably infrequent - you can use single level trains with more doors to triple that without even going to automation.

Has any railway network managed to get less than 15 minute headways? Metros don't count, they're isolated and often enclosed.

The highest frequency city pairs I can think of, at peak periods, looking at available tickets this week:

Shanghai Hongqiao to Hangzhou East is about 10 high speed trains per hour, all trains using the same line.

Tokyo to Shin-Osaka is also about 10 high speed trains per hour.

Taipei to Taichung is 8-9 trains per hour, high speed + conventional. Shanghai to Suzhou is similar.

Rome to Florence is 6-7 trains per hour.

Hong Kong West Kowloon to Shenzhen North is 6 high speed trains per hour.

Beijing South to Tianjin is 5-6 high speed trains per hour.

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