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"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

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Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#311

Post by pyconorganizer »

briancurtin wrote: post #241
ajross wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to be careful on that line of thinking. We don't want conferences censoring presenters because of reputation issues. That said, certainly in context the humor wasn't funny -- and SXSW certainly could have asked him to rework the presentation to be less needlessly controversial. I guess what I'm most confused by is why a talk titled "Adding Value as a Non-Technical No Talent Ass-Clown." got accepted i…

> We don't want conferences censoring presenters because of reputation issues. Consider it done. As an organizer of PyCon, this Van Horn person and any others who lack basic judgement and decency skills as well as having gained a reputation for that are not welcome to present at our conference.

No. I'm a REAL PyCon organizer and I DO want people who lack basic judgement to present at the conference!!

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#312

Post by dgabriel »

egillie wrote: post #294
Alex3917 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I remember correctly there were many laws specifying that men were to be paid less than women and were to be subject to other degrading treatment. It's hard to find a good example of an actual law though because until recently virtually all states regulated education at the local level.

Do you remember the name of one of the books? I found some evidence of the opposite happening to attract men to the profession in OK, but I can easily believe that what you described happened in other states. And it's a pretty infuriating idea... To quote Steinem: “there are very few jobs that actually require a penis or a vagina, and all the other jobs should be open to both sexes.

Until the 1840s, teachers were primarily men. I trust PBS pretty thoroughly. http://www.pbs.org/onlyateacher/timeline.html

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#313

Post by [deleted] »

batista wrote: post #116
frankwiles wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A guy made some jokes anybody would fine perfectly acceptable" I don't find those jokes "perfectly acceptable", not even close.

Yes, I can see how a joking mention that "I secured a position in a company buy sending the cofounders nude pictures" can be considered controversial and unacceptable... in rural Utah, that is. Comedians, from Lenny Bruce to Carlin have used far more controversial stuff --are we, tech people as a group more backwards than the 60's and 70's people that persecuted them? (That he wasn't a comedian is not a reason to not…

[deleted]

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#314

Post by burgerbrain »

codesuela wrote: post #96
burgerbrain wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not so quick to blame the people who call themselves that. Sure, some 'brogrammers' are sexist pigs who lack self awareness, but I get a strong feeling that the majority of them are just regular smoes who are looking to avoid the alternative programmer stereotype that is thrust upon them by society at large: 'doesn't shower, and likes science fiction a bit too much'.

yes I get that but how about going to gym, being groomed and well dressed and well versed WITHOUT conforming to the Bro stereotype, you know...like a INDIVIDUAL It's not like you have the choice between being a BROgrammer or a PROgrammer. You can also be an Software Engineer that doesn't conform to either stereotypes or "subcultures" if you would call it that. People who call themselves brogrammes seem to lack the cr…

The trick with stereotypes is that you don't have to opt-in for people to apply them to you. Be an individual... and people will still stereotype you.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#315

Post by fleitz »

capsule_toy wrote: post #310
fleitz wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than just women. I've been programming for 10 years and I don't like the culture. It's not the brogrammer stuff either. It's more the incredibly negative attitudes and litany of social faux pas. Programming isn't the only job that pays well and rewards the highly intelligent. Women probably aren't going into software dev because they're socially acclimated enough to realize what a bad deal it is. Software s…

Build up your own rolodex and be on the list of names people turn to when they need programming work done. Most developers I've met don't really care that you know Rails but not Node. They care that you're a good programmer. It's really only HR departments and lazy companies that strictly adhere to "5 years experience in Node only!" It also isn't one culture that permeates through all of programming. Go find a place…

Yes, doing that now, but as a company not individually. I'm creating it :)

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#316

Post by egillie »

dgabriel wrote: post #312
egillie wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you remember the name of one of the books? I found some evidence of the opposite happening to attract men to the profession in OK, but I can easily believe that what you described happened in other states. And it's a pretty infuriating idea... To quote Steinem: “there are very few jobs that actually require a penis or a vagina, and all the other jobs should be open to both sexes.

Until the 1840s, teachers were primarily men. I trust PBS pretty thoroughly. http://www.pbs.org/onlyateacher/timeline.html

For sure, the demographics weren't in question, I was more trying to find out whether there were any state-imposed reasons. That article points out a lot of great social causes, though.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#317

Post by egillie »

Alex3917 wrote: post #304
egillie wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you remember the name of one of the books? I found some evidence of the opposite happening to attract men to the profession in OK, but I can easily believe that what you described happened in other states. And it's a pretty infuriating idea... To quote Steinem: “there are very few jobs that actually require a penis or a vagina, and all the other jobs should be open to both sexes.

I found one cite from Gatto, which is probably where I heard it: "Between 1840 and 1860, male schoolteachers were cleansed from the Massachusetts system and replaced by women. A variety of methods was used, including the novel one of paying women slightly more than men in order to bring shame into play in chasing men out of the business. Again, the move was part of a well-conceived strategy: "Experience teaches that…

Thanks!

Also: "A state report noted the frequency with which parents coming to retrieve their own children from reform school were met by news their children had been given away to others".

I had no idea....

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#318

Post by showerst »

groby_b wrote: post #309
showerst wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing - It doesn't matter. If you run {startup X}, and your business guy puts out a presentation with women in bikinis that makes one of your female employees uncomfortable, and you don't do something about it immediately, she has a potential sexual harassment claim that is going to cost {startup X} _years_ worth of funding in legal fees and damages. The "oh {business guy} is just a bit awkward and didn't…

I sincerely hope that this is not what people perceive to be the problem with it. (It's also wrong. Sexual harassment claims require repeated offenses that generate a climate of hostility. Yay, corporate sensitivity/harassment training ;) The bigger issue is that - should you have a woman on your team - you just told her in not so many words that you perceive women more as a piece of visual stimulation than an actual…

You're right that it shouldn't ever have to be the main reason, my point merely is that the punishment is a critical threat to your business, which is something that I think would strike home even among the most misogynistic members of the tech crowd.

You're wrong about it requiring repeated events [1]

[1] http://www.connellfoley.com/seminar/employharass.html - Search in the page for 'Taylor v. Metzger'. (IANAL, but it's usually better to be safe than sorry when it comes to not being an idiot.)

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#319

Post by chc »

EvilTerran wrote: post #284
chc wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit I'm guilty of that at times, but in this particular case, I was not complaining about being downvoted — I was suggesting that the downvoters reconsider their motivations. It was a sincere comment. You will note that nowhere in my comment did I whine about the unfairness of the downvotes or bemoan my lost magical fairy points. I don't know if I'd venture to call it engrossing reading, but at any rate, I think…

You threw insults at whoever downmodded you -- you baselessly asserted that they're ignorant, hiding from their feelings, and only downmodding you because you made them uncomfortable. That's a pretty dramatic reaction to someone taking away some of your imaginary internet points. Sure, it's not complaining or whining per se , but it has exactly the same effect -- whining and insults are, by their nature, intended to…

There was nothing to disagree with. What I said was entirely factual. The only conceivable reason to downvote without comment (aside from being utterly irrational) was being upset by those facts.

And yes, I was upset — that people were reacting out of ignorance. It wasn't that I was downvoted, but what the downvotes signified, so I wanted to particularly call attention to the secondary issue I had observed.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#320

Post by dgabriel »

egillie wrote: post #316
dgabriel wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until the 1840s, teachers were primarily men. I trust PBS pretty thoroughly. http://www.pbs.org/onlyateacher/timeline.html

For sure, the demographics weren't in question, I was more trying to find out whether there were any state-imposed reasons. That article points out a lot of great social causes, though.

I don't know. I just wanted to add at least one actual source to the conversation... Social norms change, though, and this is actually an excellent example of a huge shift.
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