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The antitrust trial against Google is starting in September

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Re: The antitrust trial against Google is starting in September

#311
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that antitrust is too reactive, especially in tech, but when it hits the real world your proposed solution would just lead to a new Byzantine maze like our current tax code. We'd get a whole new industry built up around helping corporations to technically stay under the thresholds by exploiting loopholes (and another industry for lobbying for those loopholes to be expanded).

This could be used as a criticism of literally any law of any kind.

Yes, see the entire field of anarchism

Re: The antitrust trial against Google is starting in September

#312

I appreciate the passion Matt Stoller brings to antitrust issues but his analyses are not good on the economics, to say the very least. I agree that some of google’s conduct is very questionable. It’s not obvious to me that paying to be the default search product is pro-competitive. On the other hand, the case that Google is going to make (and which I think is going to be really hard for the government to overcome) i…

In the legal realm, I actually like to read blogs, newsletters, podcasts of folks that are often on the other side of an issue or thing than I am. I find it useful to gain perspective/etc. When i have no opinion, i try to find folks on "both" sides. Like say insurance lawyers and injury lawyers takes on a thing or whatever.

So I tried to read Matt on antitrust (though it turns out we share some of the same views), but once you get beyond the "forcefulness", everything only gets worse in my experience.

It's a lot of bloviation, and when you get into the details, he often will, charitably, take interesting interpretations of the actual opinions and views of courts and others, especially when they disagree with his view. Once I read enough to have a sense of continuity (IE how did claims/views/predictions turn out), I ended up giving up my subscription because i just couldn't read it anymore. There are those who are much better at representing what's going on as a whole in a thing, even when they have a point of view and share it. Even when it's a point of view i think is totally wrongheaded. It's not as passionate, for sure, but I find it more useful and enjoyable in the end, whether i agree or not.

In Matt's case, let's take this one: "Judge Mehta tossed these claims, saying that services like Yelp and Expedia aren’t general search engines and are therefore not in the same market as Google. It was a highly technical and annoying way to read certain legal questions, but bringing an antitrust case has become virtually impossible unless it’s done perfectly."

You'll note that Matt does what he often does here - when he can't explain why he's right, things become more abstract - there aren't any examples of how it was "highly technical" or "annoying" or what "certain legal questions" are. Not a single example anywhere to be found. No example or data that backs up that it is "virtually impossible" to bring antitrust cases unless they are "done perfectly".

Nope, just some abstract complaint and throwaway language about how, you know, whatever he said in the last newsletter about how this part was gonna be a slam dunk or whatever is really right, it's just, you know, "highly technical" things got in the way.

Which ones?

Oh, well, you wouldn't know them, they live in Canada, and only visit in the summer.

Let's look at what actually happened here: No, the judge did not throw the claims out because they aren't general search engines. He threw it out because he felt the plaintiffs were way short on the evidence, because they rely entirely on an expert who cites no evidence himself, only makes up theories. This sounds like an exaggerated opinion of what happened, but it's not :)

See page 46 of the opinion.

"The court agrees with Google’s second argument. Plaintiffs’ theory of anticompetitive harm rests on a multi-linked causal sequence that relies not on evidence but almost entirely on the opinion and speculation of its expert, Professor Jonathan Baker. Plaintiffs cite Professor Baker’s report for the following propositions:

Remarkably, not one of Professor Baker’s opinions, on which these fact assertions are based, cites to any record evidence.

Indeed, a closer inspection of Professor Baker's reports shows he has largely theorized the anticompetitive effects in the relevant market of Google's conduct toward the SVP's

...

Plaintiffs are required to show with proof "that the monopolist's conduct indeed has the requisite anticompetitive effect", and they have fallen well short of that burden".

This isn't even the end.

It goes on, where the Judge points out this state at oral argument and the states confirm they have no evidence, etc.

It then explains why unsupported expert opinions aren't enough to get past summary judgement, etc. It is a clear step by step refutation of the claims, unrelated to the market question.

It does then end with "Professor Baker's opinions do not rest on facts; only his ruminations about the market effects of Google's conduct" as one final jab.

To read all that, and believe that this is about, you know, some highly technical legal questions being read in an annoying way and that it's the judge requiring them to "do it perfectly" is, uh, an interesting take for sure.

It's one thing if Matt went into this and said "I think that random theorization should be enough, because facts are a lagging indicator" or "I think the court is wrong on the following legal standard", or whatever, but nope, this just gets painted as the nonsense we started with.

This is very common in his writing, and at least for me, made it not worth reading.

Re: The antitrust trial against Google is starting in September

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Essentially none of the issues you cite are antitrust issues. You could be right or wrong on the merits but they won’t be part of this case about the monopolization of the search market. (There are really important antitrust issues in the ad exchange but that isn’t the case the government brought !)

Sorry, but in any other market for goods, being the main supplier, the biggest supply-side brokerage, the biggest exchange, and the biggest demand-side brokerage would be considered a blatant antitrust violation. Somehow, Google thinks they can get away with it in ads.

Not true. Look at the market for meat. There are lots of farmers, a small number (really three or four) processors (who appear to carve up the national market into non overlapping regions) and then a large number of retail customers.

To me that looks like an actual antitrust violation but the DoJ and FTC aren’t investigating bc they are obsessing about “big tech” uselessly and bringing bad cases they are going to lose!

If you want your regulators to actually do something about a lack of competition in the US economy (which they really should be doing!) there are a ton of markets worth investigating before they waste their time on this loser of a case.

Re: The antitrust trial against Google is starting in September

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-apples-imessage-is-winning-... Apple is pretty clearly blocking Google (or any other Android app developer) from implementing this functionality and greatly benefits from it. Particularly relevant for the age demographic this thread originally referenced.

> Apple is pretty clearly blocking Google (or any other Android app developer) from implementing this functionality What functionality? Give some concrete examples.

High res photos is the most egregious example.

Re: The antitrust trial against Google is starting in September

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple is pretty clearly blocking Google (or any other Android app developer) from implementing this functionality What functionality? Give some concrete examples.

High res photos is the most egregious example.

That's an issue with the MMS standard.

Try again.

Re: The antitrust trial against Google is starting in September

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High res photos is the most egregious example.

That's an issue with the MMS standard. Try again.

Correct, the issue is that Apple doesn't support interoperability with iMessage or a modern standard like RCS. The EU is concerned enough to address this with a regulatory apparatus that the US lacks.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/27/22406303/imessage-android...

Re: The antitrust trial against Google is starting in September

#317
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's legal in the US to have an awesome product that monopolizes the market as long as it wins on it's own merits. The government is claiming that the search market is being monopolized, not by having the best results, but by paying $45 billion dollars/year to various browser suppliers to make Google the default browser. That's the illegal act. > "Essentially, Google has bought up all of the shelf space where search…

>> The government is claiming that the search market is being monopolized, not by having the best results, but by paying $45 billion dollars/year to various browser suppliers to make Google the default browser. That's the illegal act. And google is going to say correctly that consumers are free to switch search engines. They are free to enter “bing.com” in google chrome and it will take them right where they want to…

I don't see the distinction you think is very obvious. Google is paying 3rd parties to bundle GoogleSearch as the default in their browser. That's what the government objects to. I'm fairly sure that violates antitrust rules just as much as bundling a browser with your OS does.

Re: The antitrust trial against Google is starting in September

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an issue with the MMS standard. Try again.

Correct, the issue is that Apple doesn't support interoperability with iMessage or a modern standard like RCS. The EU is concerned enough to address this with a regulatory apparatus that the US lacks. https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/27/22406303/imessage-android...

> Apple doesn't support interoperability with iMessage or a modern standard like RCS.

Sorry, but Google's proprietary closed source fork of RCS is not any kind of "standard".

> Google's version of RCS—the one promoted on the website with Google-exclusive features like optional encryption—is definitely proprietary, by the way. If this is supposed to be a standard, there's no way for a third-party to use Google's RCS APIs right now. Some messaging apps, like Beeper, have asked Google about integrating RCS and were told there's no public RCS API and no plans to build one.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/new-google-site-begs...

Re: The antitrust trial against Google is starting in September

#319
post #96

Antitrust laws are too reactive. We need proactive laws that break up companies if they grow beyond a certain size criteria. Ideally, the criteria would be aggressive enough to kill large corporations leaving behind only small to medium-sized businesses. The result would be markets with increased competition, more innovation, lower prices, more options for employment and self-employment, and the elimination of Big Co…

> We need proactive laws that break up companies if they grow beyond a certain size criteria.

Which is what the Sherman Act says:

"Every person who shall monopolize, or attempt to monopolize, or combine or conspire with any other per- son or persons, to monopolize any part of the trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and, on conviction thereof, shall be punished by fine not exceeding $100,000,000 if a corporation, or, if any other person, $1,000,000, or by imprisonment not exceeding 10 years, or by both said punishments, in the discretion of the court."

It hasn't been rigorously enforced since the 1960s, but the Department of Justice does have the option of enforcing it as written.

Re: The antitrust trial against Google is starting in September

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, the issue is that Apple doesn't support interoperability with iMessage or a modern standard like RCS. The EU is concerned enough to address this with a regulatory apparatus that the US lacks. https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/27/22406303/imessage-android...

> Apple doesn't support interoperability with iMessage or a modern standard like RCS. Sorry, but Google's proprietary closed source fork of RCS is not any kind of "standard". > Google's version of RCS—the one promoted on the website with Google-exclusive features like optional encryption—is definitely proprietary, by the way. If this is supposed to be a standard, there's no way for a third-party to use Google's RCS A…

Then Apple should allow interoperability with the iMessage protocol. They maintain control without the anti-competitive side effects. They are also free to use any variant of RCS that isn't controlled by Google.
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