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US could soon approve MDMA therapy

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Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#311
post #281
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody gives a shit about most hunting weapons And here's the issue then. What anti-gun advocates argue are weapons not good for hunting is misguided. Additionally, it doesn't matter if a gun was designed to hunt or not - the gun is an inanimate object. People like to discuss banning AR-15's all day, failing to realize just how many similar-but-not-AR-15's model rifles exist out there, most of which fire the same c…

Nobody is hunting with handguns or high powered rifles with high capacity magazines. Back when I did bird hunt, the entire community would jump on any fool that fired more than the allowed shells in a gun in rapid fire. It is obvious when it happens, and hilarious with how regulated guns actually are in hunting communities. So, I reiterate. Nobody gives a shit about those. They are instead trotted out as a straw man…

I don't know what you're considering "high powered", but hunting rifles actually tend to be on the larger caliber side of things. If you're shooting a large mammal, using something like a 22 is just unnecessary cruelty. You want a round that will kill as fast as possible, so .338 in, .30-06 or 7.62 mm are the calibers of choice. If you're talking about .50 BMG as "high powered", then lucky for you, "high powered" rifles are almost never used in crime. They're just too expensive. In the few cases that they were used, I can't find a case where the "high powered" nature of it was actually relevant.

And I have the exact opposite point of view with regard to HP rounds. If we're talking handguns, we're talking self defense, and in self defense situations, the only rounds you want are hollow point. Because they're designed to flatten out on impact, they go through a lot fewer walls, ceilings, and home invaders, making the shooter far less likely to accidentally over-penetrate into their family or neighbors. Using full metal jacket for home defense is putting everybody else at excessive risk.

Incendiary rounds are for fun, and little else. They look scary, but they don't really have any real effect.

This kind of illustrates one of the big issues with firearms discourse in the US: people who like having guns tend to know a lot about them, and take for granted that people have that same knowledge, neglecting the fact that there's a whole other group of people who know next to nothing about them. Then the people who know next to nothing about firearms propose gun legislation which is just baffling to anyone who knows anything about guns, like banning specific models of firearm, or certain ergonomic features, or banning silencers/suppressors (this isn't Goldeneye, they just make it less hearing damagingly loud to shoot).

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice to read your journey. Glad you found a way through. I had a similar experience to the first half of your story. Was so unfulfilled in tech that I ended up quitting and took time off not working, trying lots of different things, getting very frustrated and depressed along the way. I did try LSD (ok, a lot of LSD) and instead of it helping me process/sort through/integrate some of my troubles it added new ones and…

I wish more people spoke about their negative experiences with psychedelics. It's a sobering and necessary counterpoint to most of what floods these threads of how it changed someone's life, but the "how" is largely ambiguous.

I think this kind of misses the bigger reason that there isn't a lot of formal discussion on psychedelics; people are worried/nervous to talk about it too openly because psychedelics are "hard" drugs. Even for research purposes, they're tightly controlled which ends up suppressing a lot of practical research and you _have_ to rely on hearsay and anecdata to make a decision.

Edit: Also, as another commenter noted, because very few places allow you to get psychedelics legally, dosage and purity is always questionable; naturally you're going to have a bad time with something that is cut with really nasty drugs if you aren't aware of it and prepared for it, but this is pretty true of most things in life, even those not related to drugs.

Search engines, well, Google at least, are pretty complicit in this too, as it seems that sites discouraging drug use are brought to the top when searching for relatively reasonable things like "safe dosage $drug" or "$drug interaction with $other_drug". Even between different countries, the same search query on google will give quite different results.

I don't think among the people I've talked to that enjoy psychedelics have ever introduced a newbie to any drug without a safety warning and a fair amount of preparation, and in Amsterdam where mushrooms are legal, the shops are quite careful to ensure they are giving you the rundown on what to prepare for, dosages, finding a comfortable and reliable setting, safety, etc.

> but the "how" is largely ambiguous.

Honest question, have you taken any drugs that weren't prescription or alcohol/caffeine/nicotine? Because it's very easy to pinpoint how drugs (especially psychedelics) are life changing, at least for me.

Ecstasy - For a few brief hours, I not only felt good, but thought good thoughts about myself. It was a complete reset after many years of extremely low and dark times in my life, and after that I had a baseline of "hey, I actually _can_ feel good and think good things about myself; I am capable of it." And it was basically all I needed, a single time to break me out of years of depression

Psychedelics - It is an immense spark of creativity and just fascinating to see what your mind can invent and how everything has additional "perspectives", like the color of music, visualizing a world or scene in your imagination that you probably never thought of before, and the good sensations you have amplified by 1000x. Your mind makes connections and associations which sure, with time you could maybe reach sober, but it happens rapidly, effortlessly, and repeatedly on psychedelics, and the experience stays with you. If you've never had a moment of clarity, be it academic, problem solving, etc, then I'm not sure that psychedelics are the biggest concern for you :). These experiences _can_ happen sober, but at least for me, only with guided meditation over many sessions could I reach such an experience.

I'm not sure it's possible to be more specific than this with simple descriptive words, and I think the art and other drug-inspired pieces more than speak for themselves as to how it can be life changing.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#313

Can someone share any relevant experience with this? Best would be if you did it properly under supervision of clinical professional, or if you are a professional here, by any chance. Doesn’t matter if it’s US or not.

Only recreational. I've taken MDMA many times in my life and -- presumably like most people who have -- can see why it's got therapeutic potential. Honestly though, I'm not convinced about it in a clinical setting, unless there's a particularly severe issue that needs addressing. I reckon most people are best off just buying some, getting together with a couple of very good mates on a nice day, rolling out into the c…

I agree and wouldn't want to have it in an antiseptic clinical environment either, but not everyone has access to good mates and a sound system, and they should be able to benefit as well. So I'm fine with clinical treatments being available.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don’t have to stretch, plenty of people have ADHD and have taken MDMA, I can tell you personally that MDMA is in no way a substitute for regular adhd medication. Like, not even close. MDMA is basically a social/lovey high that mildly distorts your vision and senses, it is not something you would take regularly to help focus on work. And taking it once isn’t going to help you focus better after taking it Your end…

Have you taken mdma (let’s say, the brown powder which is typically considered less likely to be adulterated) and adderall? I’m sorry but I just can’t believe anybody who has experienced the two would say that mdma would help focus as well as a regular adhd medication. You can’t just look at the structures or names and assume that fully explains the effects. Yes, it’s an amphetamine. Imagine there was some form of al…

> the brown powder which is typically considered less likely to be adulterated

This is a very common misconception. Just because MDMA is sold in powder form does not make it less likely to be adulterated, and color is a misleading (and easily manipulated) heuristic.

You can test for the presence of hypothesized adulterants, though most people unfortunately don't, and tests will fail to detect heterogeneous adulterants or adulterants in small quantities. Furthermore, reagants test for the presence of specific hypothesized adulterants; they cannot test for the absence.

The only way to be 100% sure is to use a mass spectrometer, and very few people will have access to use a mass spectrometer for testing street drugs outside of law enforcement (who emphatically cannot be trusted for these purposes[0]). That leaves clinicians, researchers, and a small number of groups who perform drug testing services for recreational users. From those, we have a pretty good sense that unadulterated MDMA is quite rare[1], which means that comparing subjective experiences of recreational (street) drug use to subjective experiences of pharmaceutical drug use is methodologically fraught.

> You can’t just look at the structures or names and assume that fully explains the effects.

I did not say that it fully explains the effects. However, it does provide some information. And in this particular case, the differences are dramatically overstated, due to the massive difference in set, setting, dosage, and chemical composition (possible adulterants).

My point is that you can't compare your subjective experience of these two drugs to draw the conclusion you're drawing, because there are many different confounding variables that would each explain the difference in effect you're describing, let alone in combination.

Again, I do agree that MDMA should not be used as a treatment for ADHD. I'm just pointing out the problem in drawing this conclusion based on subjective personal (and presumably recreational) experiences with the drug.

[0] Law enforcement routinely lies about and misrepresents facts around drugs, for various purposes. It's most commonly seen with regards to fentanyl, but by and large you can't trust LEO claims about tests performed on any drugs seized without independent means of corroboration.

[1] That doesn't mean that the adulterated versions are necessarily harmful, but it does provide an additional wrinkle when using it to draw inferences about hypothetical clinical use (which would not have any adulterants).

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#315
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't use it in a medicinal context though. You used it recreationally and thought about a problem then arrived at a solution. There's only x ways you could have fit the TVs in, and I'm sure most people could have figured it out without taking anything, it's hardly a difficult task.

how to use mdma in medical way? does it requires obeying to some owner of some kind of medical license?

If MDMA is approved as a treatment drug it will undoubtedly by a schedule 2 drug only administered at a doctor’s office. The key idea is MDMA assisted therapy.

MDMA is used as therapeutic grease. People with PTSD frequently can’t talk about or otherwise process what happened to them without reliving the event(s) and re-traumatizing them. MDMA tamps down the fear response and makes them more open to communication. It frequently makes people want to connect to someone else which also helps with therapy. MDMA isn’t what relives the PTSD, it is the therapy.

If I recall the MAPS study, patients were given 2-3 doses of MDMA over 8 months of therapy.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only recreational. I've taken MDMA many times in my life and -- presumably like most people who have -- can see why it's got therapeutic potential. Honestly though, I'm not convinced about it in a clinical setting, unless there's a particularly severe issue that needs addressing. I reckon most people are best off just buying some, getting together with a couple of very good mates on a nice day, rolling out into the c…

I do see the logic in its clinical application: It's the combination of two facts: 1) Human recall is imperfect. The act of remembering an event actively modifies the memory for future recall, which can be tinted by other thoughts and experiences someone is having while doing the recollection. 2) It's rather difficult to feel strong negative emotion while on MDMA. While under the effects, the baseline is somewhere be…

> It's rather difficult to feel strong negative emotion while on MDMA.

This is patently incorrect.

My experience is that MDMA makes one feel emotions much more intensely, with a bias towards positive emotions.

I've personally felt a number of negative emotions on MDMA as well, primarily loneliness when I've taken it alone, or ended up alone after taking it. This makes sense because it makes one strongly desire physical intimacy and physical touch of various kinds (hugs, shoulder rubs, compliments, deep expressions of love, etc)

Even the negative emotions I've experienced on it have however generally occurred at the same time of very positive physical sensations, and a strong sense of connection with myself.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#317
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do see the logic in its clinical application: It's the combination of two facts: 1) Human recall is imperfect. The act of remembering an event actively modifies the memory for future recall, which can be tinted by other thoughts and experiences someone is having while doing the recollection. 2) It's rather difficult to feel strong negative emotion while on MDMA. While under the effects, the baseline is somewhere be…

> It's rather difficult to feel strong negative emotion while on MDMA. While under the effects, the baseline is somewhere between "happy" and "downright euphoric". I am floored by this assertion, as it's completely contrary to my experience. My reaction to MDMA was a nightmare of disorientation, fear, and anxiety. I don't remember the dosage, but the setting was my own home, among friends and acquaintances at my own…

Did you have it tested? If you look at Erowid’s test reports, so many things that are labeled “Ecstasy” are not wholly or even partly MDMA. Lots of samples are mostly either MDA, meth, other stimulants, a combination of those or other non related chemicals.

Actual, pure MDMA can only ever make you feel good.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#318
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying, and I've basically only done the "cowboy-style drop acid/MDMA/shrooms in random settings" and sorted my shit out that way (well, some of it, at least) myself, and honestly, it's worked out pretty well for me. But I've also met a few folks that have been deeply traumatized by bad trips - one particularly painful example is someone who saw a friend he loved fall to her death whilst tripping on…

That's the thing. Tripping and self reflecting isn't edgy. It's been made to seem edgy. Someone died while doing drugs? Guess we should only sell beer at the psych office too so they can save us. And cut your self righteous bullshit about internet comments being uncalled for. Trauma and overcoming, i.e, the human experience, isn't new. These mega institutions sticking their whole fist up our ass is. I'm not against t…

I think you're being somewhat overly negative, but I definitely have some sympathy towards what you're saying.

I like mushrooms. I enjoy them recreationally a few times a year. I think there are benefits to be derived from their use. I think I've derived some of those benefits. But I also think, sometimes, it's just fucking fun to be high at a concert, and I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that in a responsible and safe manner.

I want to see us move in a less prohibition direction, and I think that legalizing psychedelics for therapy could be a boon for many people. But I would also like to live in a world where I can be trusted to consume an occasional dose of a non-addictive, naturally occurring substance without the whole thing being medicalized, regulated, and only allowed to happen with the guidance of a psychiatrist.

I sort of like the approach Ann Arbor took, where they're not illegal for personal possession and cultivation, but also not legal for sale. Seems like a decent balance for personal responsibility to me.

I truly understand the fear and caution around these substances. They require serious forethought and care to be used safely. But at the end of the day, I know I'm more than capable of that forethought and care and resent being told that I'm not allowed to grow a mushroom because psychedelics are scary.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you taken mdma (let’s say, the brown powder which is typically considered less likely to be adulterated) and adderall? I’m sorry but I just can’t believe anybody who has experienced the two would say that mdma would help focus as well as a regular adhd medication. You can’t just look at the structures or names and assume that fully explains the effects. Yes, it’s an amphetamine. Imagine there was some form of al…

> the brown powder which is typically considered less likely to be adulterated This is a very common misconception. Just because MDMA is sold in powder form does not make it less likely to be adulterated, and color is a misleading (and easily manipulated) heuristic. You can test for the presence of hypothesized adulterants, though most people unfortunately don't, and tests will fail to detect heterogeneous adulterant…

I am sure everyone is well aware that MDMA can be adulterated and that physical presentation can be misleading. Sure, we can clinically study it to confirm or deny what I’m saying. But you’ve still never admitted that you’ve taken it (I suspect you haven’t) and I stand by my assertion that nobody who has would consider it suitable for ADHD - even if you can’t rule out that a random commenter like me may have had an adulterated experience or analogue.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#320

Rick Doblin recently went on a Joe Rogan podcast where he went more in depth about his experience with this.

Was he on in between Ivermectin and DMT enthusiasts? Not that MDMA treatments are definitely bunk, but Doblin seems like he's promoting himself as much as he's interested in helping people.
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