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Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

latimes.com

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Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#311

Post by braingenious »

randomdata wrote: post #275
braingenious wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of libertarian managers in the US would disagree with that. From a manager’s perspective the ability to fire anyone at any time is them exercising freedom of association. “Libertarian” has a specific connotation in the US, certainly when we’re discussing employment within the US.

> From a manager’s perspective the ability to fire anyone at any time is them exercising freedom of association. And they wouldn't be wrong in a vacuum, but what you're forgetting about is contract. In order for association to commence, a union is going to present a contract that spells out what happens in that case, assuming it is of concern to the union members, and the manager will be bound to what has been agreed…

I’m kind of confused here. Contracts are enforced by the government, right? Requiring a piece of paper that the government supports in order to obtain employment does not seem very libertarian.

I’m just playing devil’s advocate here, I don’t actually care about libertarianism because in the US it’s a label self-applied by many kooks (for example, just look up the Libertarian Party nominees for president in… any of our elections)

By US standards, in the US job market, “unions are a libertarian concept” is something that only someone unfamiliar with US labor dynamics and the local meaning of “libertarian” would say. It’s a pointless exercise of “Look how I define this word outside of meaningful context!”

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#312

Post by flavius29663 »

unity1001 wrote: post #203
tapatio wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also makes logical sense. Why would you let go of a 10X engineer? You'd have to be an idiot.

> You'd have to be an idiot. Yep. Like someone who could do it through an algorithm. Like how Google did...

This is the first I hear of this, do you have a source for that?

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#313

Post by randomdata »

sokoloff wrote: post #291
randomdata wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you say that right-to-work is also a libertarian concept? This isn't a common term where I'm from, so I am admittedly not intimately familiar with it, but as I understand its meaning, as defined by Wikipedia, it removes some degree of freedom of association. So, no, it is in stark contrast to libertarianism.

In what way does it reduce freedom of association? In a right-to-work state, I am free to associate with employer X without a corresponding requirement to fund a union that I might not care to associate with. That combination seems to increase (or at least leave unchanged) my freedom of association. (Others who do wish to associate with that union are still free to do so, of course.)

> I am free to associate with employer X without a corresponding requirement to fund a union that I might not care to associate with.

With freedom of association, a union and employer could reach a contractual agreement to require that all employees who enter into an association with the employer must pay into the union, regardless of membership status. Freedom of association allows an employer to reject those terms, of course, but if they do enter into that agreement then that's the terms of engagement that must be adhered to.

The government lording over saying "You can't do that", even when both parties are agreeable to the terms, removes necessary freedom. If the employer wants to associate with you without you needing to pay into a union, they can reject those terms on their own accord. If they do enter into that agreement, they have the freedom to not associate with you if you don't like the terms (as you the freedom to not associate with them).

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#314

Post by mateus1 »

anthonypasq wrote: post #247
angarg12 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an immigrant tech worker on visa (L1 to be specific) I find this comment cruel and tone deaf. Losing my job means losing my status, which means having to leave the country in short notice, my wife losing her job as well, and uprooting my family (again). Sure, I would survive , but I would definitely call it a personal tragedy.

were you under the impression your job was guaranteed for life?

What a rude thing to say to someone who just lost their livelihood and ties to the place they live.

Do you ask grieving orphans if they expected their parents would live forever?

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#315

Post by chimeracoder »

zuminator wrote: post #305
bushbaba wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unemployment doesn’t show laid off employees who aren’t yet collecting unemployment benefits. These tech workers got at least 60 days of severance thanks to the warn act.

Contrary to commonly held opinion, the unemployment rate isn't based on who's collecting unemployment. It's based on people who for the following three criteria. They: 1) don't have a job, 2) have looked for a job within the previous four weeks, and 3) are available to work at the present time.

> It's based on people who for the following three criteria. They: 1) don't have a job, 2) have looked for a job within the previous four weeks, and 3) are available to work at the present time.

You're correct.

To add to that, in some cases (such as layoffs), even the second criteria can be relaxed. For example, if a person is laid off but expected to be recalled, they don't need to have job-seeking activity to be considered unemployed for statistical purposes. That's just one example.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#316

Post by jeffwask »

theptip wrote: post #104

I just don’t buy it. To be clear this is claiming that the CEOs are sitting behind a desk stroking a cat, thinking “now I will crush the labor movement and make all my workers feel less secure”. This is just not a problem that Pichai is facing. Occam’s Razor points to the very simple, non-conspiratorial answer that it really is just stock-price driven (ie market-driven) thinking (one could say “lack of actual strateg…

You don't even need to be mustache twirly to price fix.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/10/company-that-mak...

How many companies these days use some third party service for setting salaries? How many use the same SAAS service?

If we are all using the same table of values, set by a third party, isn't that collusion with an extra step to launder the collusion.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#317

Post by jimbob45 »

jeffwask wrote: post #307
AlwaysRock wrote: post #175

Right before COVID-19 stay at home order in Chicago, a bunch of improvisers who preformed at the popular i.o theater put together a list of demands which basically asked for a bunch of changes to make the lives of performers better. They were not going to perform until those changes were made. The owner didnt respond for a few days and then said, "Hey! Heard you. Great valid concerns. But I'm actually shutting the th…

This is why I think Executives are terrified of remote work. If the local theater doesn't want to meet my demand I have a global theater and someone will be always willing to leverage their competitive advantage to secure talent that would typically not be in their talent pool. People are no longer trapped by their geography or situation and Executives are terrified of losing that control.

Which is weird because they now have more control than ever in reality.

Previously, if you headed up a tech firm in Wyoming, for example, your talent pool was the set of all the residents in Wyoming. You'd struggle to retain your top-end talent and you probably had to overpay to get them to stick around. Even worse, you probably had to donate to the University of Wyoming (read: bribe) to get them to train their students the way you needed them trained.

With remote work, you just scribble out a post on Indeed, wait a week, and then pick the most desperate candidate that has the qualifications you need. If they threaten to leave, you offer a token raise knowing that you could always find someone else if you need.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#318

Post by Retric »

politician wrote: post #264
dubcanada wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sadly why you need political power. People with money can afford WAY longer then you to just say "nah..."

The power to compel others is dangerous.

Having zero power is vastly more dangerous.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#319

Post by sokoloff »

time_to_smile wrote: post #272
AlwaysRock wrote: post #175

Right before COVID-19 stay at home order in Chicago, a bunch of improvisers who preformed at the popular i.o theater put together a list of demands which basically asked for a bunch of changes to make the lives of performers better. They were not going to perform until those changes were made. The owner didnt respond for a few days and then said, "Hey! Heard you. Great valid concerns. But I'm actually shutting the th…

That's why the time to make demands and organize was when this current tech boom was just getting started, when engineer salaries started to really pick up and before bootcamps and massive new waves of CS grads where in swing. By organizing across the field, software engineers would have been able to have more input into the rate of engineer growth (which would have hurt bootcamps but generally lead to higher quality…

I’m on my third or fourth cycle of this in tech. The expansion we just saw will not be the last, nor will this contraction be the last.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#320

Post by paulcole »

traverseda wrote: post #139
paulcole wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people on HN think of themselves as "top talent" (a barf phrase if there ever was one) and convinced themselves that they would be the ones held back by a union.

As a developer without any formal education (I dropped out of high school) my worry is that unions will be used to enforce credentialism.

How has this shaken out w/ unions in other industries? Do they push this sort of credentialism?
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