Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power • Hacker News Board

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#201

Post by kilgnad » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:58 PM UTC

aeternum wrote: post #183

s1artibartfast wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that they have changed. People brought it up before and people are bringing it up now and they'll continue bringing it up. I think the tech workers are generally still opposed to the idea

Imagine how terrible it would be to be on a team with subpar engineers with some kind of tenure / union protection so they cannot be fired. I think this is a big reason tech workers are opposed to the idea.

I mean which do you prefer. Being on a team with terrible engineers, or getting layed off. Take your pick.

It's not really a binary choice either. With unions it just increases the probability of you being on a team of terrible engineers while lowering the probability of you getting layed off.

So the real question is which probability metric is more important to you and other engineers?

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#202

Post by vkou » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:59 PM UTC

ejb999 wrote: post #147

killjoywashere wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not have to divulge the basis of your departure from a company. "Creative differences".

hiring managers are not that dumb ... if you prior job is amazon, and you are applying for a new job 2 months after 18K have been laid off - they can put 2 and 2 together pretty easily. Even if you did leave on your own accord, they will likely assume you were let go. It's almost always easier to get a new job, when you still have one.

Any hiring manager who thinks that getting laid off in 2023 is some kind of black mark against you is dumb.

Some people are being laid off for performance. Most are being laid off because they were unlucky.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#203

Post by unity1001 » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:59 PM UTC

tapatio wrote: post #158

nicholasjarnold wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add a counterpoint - I've heard senior executives remark about the likelihood that many of those let go are the not the employees that you really _want_ to pickup. The reasoning they've implied there is that these big companies that hire so voraciously have simply made some mistakes along the way and used the current happenings to jettison those mistakenly-hired employees swiftly and efficiently. Note: I'm sure ma…

It also makes logical sense. Why would you let go of a 10X engineer? You'd have to be an idiot.

> You'd have to be an idiot.

Yep. Like someone who could do it through an algorithm. Like how Google did...

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#204

Post by glass3 » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:59 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #103

kilgnad wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the last decade or so, there were several times I brought this up on HN (anonymously), and each time my opinion was attacked as not making any sense. Times change.

Short term is still good for engineers: - The economics of supply and demand will swing back to software engineers in the short term, because there aren't enough of us to power every tech company's product roadmap on their desired timeline. - Laid off workers will start new companies that will threaten the companies that laid them off. - The macro environment will swing back eventually to favor fast growth. Long term…

The broader global talent pool could kick in the Jevons paradox [1]. Software eats everything and even more talent could be needed to maintain a lead. When more value is derived from software in the value chain, the market leaders can then hand out even more resources as salaries.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#205

Post by vkou » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 5:01 PM UTC

aeternum wrote: post #183

s1artibartfast wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that they have changed. People brought it up before and people are bringing it up now and they'll continue bringing it up. I think the tech workers are generally still opposed to the idea

Imagine how terrible it would be to be on a team with subpar engineers with some kind of tenure / union protection so they cannot be fired. I think this is a big reason tech workers are opposed to the idea.

Union people get fired all the time.

What firms can't usually do to them is fire them without actually demonstrating cause.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#206

Post by azemetre » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 5:01 PM UTC

theptip wrote: post #104

I just don’t buy it. To be clear this is claiming that the CEOs are sitting behind a desk stroking a cat, thinking “now I will crush the labor movement and make all my workers feel less secure”. This is just not a problem that Pichai is facing. Occam’s Razor points to the very simple, non-conspiratorial answer that it really is just stock-price driven (ie market-driven) thinking (one could say “lack of actual strateg…

You realize more than a decade ago a cartel of tech companies (two of which being Google and Apple) literally had no poach agreements in order to suppress salaries right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#207

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 5:02 PM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #146

cloutchaser wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second hand information: Apple on average takes 2 years to fill an empty position. They almost never lay anyone off, just find another role for someone. It's where the evil corporation narrative falls down, apple makes sure they hire the right people and then keep them. It's the way it should be. But even for other tech companies, people on HN need to look outside of tech and see what life is like, there are people o…

I’m sorry, but this is just class war crap. Instead of pitting workers against each other like the plutocrats want, always ALWAYS remember that even with all that non-monetary compensation, the executives are still taking more 100x of the value created by the worker. This is like complaining about some athlete getting paid millions to risk their health for entertainment, while not once giving a thought about the bill…

Bingo. Billionaires win when they convince thousandaires that millionaires are the real problem.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#208

Post by MisterBastahrd » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 5:03 PM UTC

ejb999 wrote: post #147

killjoywashere wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not have to divulge the basis of your departure from a company. "Creative differences".

hiring managers are not that dumb ... if you prior job is amazon, and you are applying for a new job 2 months after 18K have been laid off - they can put 2 and 2 together pretty easily. Even if you did leave on your own accord, they will likely assume you were let go. It's almost always easier to get a new job, when you still have one.

Well, they actually ARE that dumb (because they don't care), and it's none of their business. I had a 13 year track record building a series of apps with a user base of over 500K as a solo dev before I was laid off because of corporate mismanagement of funding. I interviewed with 9 companies, received offers from 4 before I stopped looking, and was still in the race for the remaining 5.

Hiring managers don't have time to be super sleuths. If your interview and reference process can't weed people out, then you shouldn't be in charge of hiring people. Either way, the person who gets laid off from Amazon is going to have already shown the capacity to jump through a dozen stupid hoops by sheer process of being offered a job to work there.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#209

Post by Apocryphon » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 5:03 PM UTC

aeternum wrote: post #183

s1artibartfast wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that they have changed. People brought it up before and people are bringing it up now and they'll continue bringing it up. I think the tech workers are generally still opposed to the idea

Imagine how terrible it would be to be on a team with subpar engineers with some kind of tenure / union protection so they cannot be fired. I think this is a big reason tech workers are opposed to the idea.

On the other hand, I’ve seen great teams who were continuously stymied and stonewalled by incompetent leadership who failed to address the concerns of engineering, who refused to be transparent, who made boneheaded decisions without a check in power.

Tech, particularly Silicon Valley tech startups, have always had rather lofty ideals and conjured visions of employee empowerment, which management then fail to deliver upon. One could imagine a tech union or guild that goes beyond the function of old-style industrial unions but actually serves as a means of protection for a company’s workforce to challenge management decisions if a majority disagree, in terms of strategy. Every engineer has felt like Dilbert working under a pointy-headed boss at some point.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#210

Post by cnelsenmilt » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 5:05 PM UTC

superfrank wrote: post #162

pwthornton wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big tech layoffs should work differently than most industries and may not impact unemployment as much. Big tech employees a lot of H1B visas holders. If they cannot quickly find a new job, they will have to leave the country.

On an individual level, I really feel bad for anyone put in that positions. I can't imagine how stressful that would be for anyone going through that. I wouldn't want anyone to go through that. Taking the emotion out of it and looking at a macro level though, I think the program has been abused by big tech to bring in workers who have less bargaining power and I'm all for it getting a bit of a reset. The purpose of t…

A policy change to allow people holding these visas who get laid off -- not fired for cause, not quit -- extended time to find new employment seems like a no brainer to me. An H1B holder can't have caused the layoffs themselves, so there's not much opening for "cheating". Sadly I think it conflicts with the true nature of the program, which you alluded to, to wit, lowering their bargaining power.