Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#311

Post by InitialLastName » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #105

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

> The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. > And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion, salary is a sign of respect from you employer. What's your hypothesis for why they performed worse? If I saw a listing for a…

Wouldn't the test of that question be whether they were able to hire the stronger candidates within the listed salary range?

I could see other things swaying stronger candidates away from applying to the jobs with salary ranges; it can be difficult to tell the distribution of salaries within the range, so perhaps they didn't want to risk being offered at the lower end of the range.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#312

Post by nsxwolf » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

saddd wrote: post #236

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

>And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion, salary is a sign of respect from you employer. Let's see your salary range numbers and what tier you fall under. https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala... Are you in Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3? Are you paying your mid-level engs over $200k…

I would love to hit that senior/above senior range working remote from the midwest, but everybody I talk to adjusts heavily for COL.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#313

Post by onlyrealcuzzo » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:28 PM UTC

dotdi wrote: post #256

More anecdotal evidence: a few years back I wanted to get out of the work situation I was in. I looked around, had some interviews, had some offers. None of the postings had salary ranges, as is common where I live. My eyes, however, were set on a specific small company because I liked their product. The process was long and involved multiple meetings, a take-home problem, and stretched over 2 or so months. I was upf…

This is exactly why.

Interviewing can easily eat up 2-3 days of your life.

You only get 15-30 days of vacation per year.

Theoretically, you are working to have free time.

This is maybe 1/5th of your free time per year. You can't waste this on unknowns.

Give me the salary up front or p#$$ off.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#314

Post by andrewmutz » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:28 PM UTC

kjellsbells wrote: post #195

andrewmutz wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. This makes sense to me. The strongest engineers are those who really love the work and enjoy building software systems. They tend to have active software side projects outside of work. They tend to be the sort who want to be paid well, but prioritize places where they can learn new things, learn from others and be excited. They want to enjoy c…

> 'If your relationship with the industry is transactional, you rarely develop into a great software engineer' You may be right but I'm curious. I suspect that the issue is one of trust that the employer will adequately reward great code. If I'm a jeweler, its very evident that I will get paid handsomely for the finest work, and I will get to work with the finest materials, creating a virtuous circle. It is not at al…

> you want to treat me as a fungible disposable fixed price asset?

I think this is the crux of the issue. Many companies invest quite heavily in improving engineers. My last company would send people to conferences, bring in consultants to train, have extended onboarding and training programs, and each engineer had a set budget for any training materials they wanted to purchase. They were absolutely not fungible or disposable. Other companies, I am sure, don't invest in their employees.

But perhaps this is just the system working: "mercenary" engineers will go work for the highest posted salary and will work at companies where they are treated as fungible and disposable. The "growth" engineers will go work at the companies where they can learn and grow and are invested in.

As long as both types of engineer make their way to the appropriate companies, the system works.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#315

Post by twawaaay » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:29 PM UTC

jsdwarf wrote: post #309

twawaaay wrote: post #282

In decades of interviewing and hiring developers I have not seen an actual difference coming from posting salary ranges. I tried many different versions of this. As a candidate, I do not apply to a thousand different places. I find 3-4 where I would want to work and I do my research before I even apply. I know what they can pay me before I get to talk to them. As an interviewer I try to stay away from candidates that…

Your "loose-loose" problem can be easily addressed. Simply post two ads - one for a Developer, one for Senior Developer, Senior Developer range being x000 USD higer than dev range. If mediocre candidates apply for Senior, tell them that you can only offer them the dev Position because they lack qualification x. Vice versa, you can "promote" great dev candidates to the senior dev position. In the end, nobody forces yo…

That's not how this works. If somebody responded to senior developer ad, they will never be happy if I give them regular developer job.

This is how human brain works.

If I started discussion with you at $150k and then negotiated down to $120k you will be permanently unhappy even if you could be happy if we started with $100k and then gave you upgrade to $120k without you even asking.

Same with bonuses. When people receive full bonus couple of times in a row they start treating it as part of their base salary and get very unhappy, feel resentful and cheated if they suddenly don't get it all.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#316

Post by brailsafe » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:29 PM UTC

dotdi wrote: post #256

More anecdotal evidence: a few years back I wanted to get out of the work situation I was in. I looked around, had some interviews, had some offers. None of the postings had salary ranges, as is common where I live. My eyes, however, were set on a specific small company because I liked their product. The process was long and involved multiple meetings, a take-home problem, and stretched over 2 or so months. I was upf…

Respect. Any time burned is more valuable than anything, and that's what they deliberately tried to do.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#317

Post by frant-hartm » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:30 PM UTC

eranation wrote: post #299

Salary ranges are great, and I think it indeed can save time for some job seekers (as well as employers) but on a side note, regardless of posting salary ranges, sometimes you want to hire people who do not only look for a better pay. Sometimes you can't pay better, and sometimes you know you can only pay worse (e.g. a seed stage startup) and all you can offer is - interesting problems to solve, culture, upside, visi…

Then post the lower salary range and save yourself and the candidates who won't work for that kind of money the time.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#318

Post by brailsafe » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:31 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

Did you end up hiring the people who performed better and who responded to the salary-absent posts, and what did you end up paying them compared to the initial ranges in the others?

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#319

Post by srvmshr » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:31 PM UTC

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #288

srvmshr wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay here's the thing: Let me add some details to dispell that "part-myth". Salarymen do have long working hours & have to go along with those office drinking parties etc. But at the same time, they are treated more personally than an American enterprise employee would. Parents sick in old age? Many companies would give cash incentives to support. Buying a house? CEO might extend you a personal credit line or speak t…

There are still some caveats to these things. Managers becoming patriarchs (or even companies) can change the culture to then make individuals dependent on them. No patriarch, severely restricted options. That's a huge issue in Japan, and it's a huge issue outside Japan as well. Giving people the stink eye for just mentioning leaving a company makes it easier for malicious companies (black companies in particular) to…

What is a black company? i am not aware of this nomenclature. Please explain?

>[...] these are required to keep most of the solely good things.

Which things?

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#320

Post by bena » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:32 PM UTC

FalconSensei wrote: post #186

bena wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I can see a scenario. You think you're hot shit on a silver platter. You apply for jobs with high TC listed and others which you believe will also be high TC based on... reasons, even though they don't list their salary ranges. You get callbacks from some of the high TC positions you applied for. You also get callbacks from the non-listed salary positions. Cool. None of the highest, none of your first choices…

but in that case... isn't it bad for the employer if the person is not actually happy with the salary is they are going to bail as soon as they find something else?

That's assuming they can. In my hypothetical scenario, it's their best offer because it's actually where they should be but our hypothetical protagonist has an over-inflated sense of self-worth.

Like I said, it's just a possible scenario where I can see how not posting their range could get them more applicants.