Live data from Hacker News

Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

justice.gov

311–320 of 889 posts

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#311
post #241
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And 100% of the votes from those precincts without observers should’ve been discarded. The real problem is that we don’t fund elections properly. This sort of thing isn’t a problem in other developed democracies. It’s only one here by design.

What you’re proposing is that the official in charge of running elections can cut funding to precincts that usually vote for his opponent, and then later invalidate all ballots cast there?

I thought that they were simultaneously suggesting that funding be increased in a concrete and not easily reverse way. But I do see your point

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to frequently be the surprising thing about these corruption cases. I'm reminded of the fascinating case where journalists in Chicago bought a bar to investigate corruption. They were shocked at $10 bribes getting things done for them (30+ years ago, but still a small sum). https://interactive.wttw.com/timemachine/mirage-tavern Many of us would assume the sums of money needed to bribe officials would be hu…

(US perspective here not sure about other countries) This type of thing has made me think we should pay politicians more but then say they can't make money any other ways while in office and for some amount of years after they leave office. No stock trading, no deals to get a private job after you leave office (unless you leave time to make sure your decisions could have no impact on the business you're joining), and…

Ok, but you're adding a bunch of rules and some people are just out looking for ways to use their willingness to break rules as a competitive advantage.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#313
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the us v them mentality. I have lots of right wing friends and family and many of them have been against electronic voting from the beginning. For example, in my home state of oregon, many right wingers are against vote by mail and have been since oregon became the first state to go fully vote by mail. These issues are not so binary as you're making them out to be, and I think everyone would do wel…

[flagged]

> Your friends may be for election integrity, but the people they're voting for most certainly are not.

I mean they have a name for these people: RINOs. I think I read an article that showed that most conservatives distrust their own politicians more than liberals distrust theirs. The feeling I get is that they have a clear idea of a politician they want, but no one who believes that runs, and they feel there is a mass conspiracy to prevent people like them from running -- namely funding. That sort of thing doesn't bode well for a country's stability.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You asked "Why didn't that sort of analysis find fraud in Philadelphia in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018?" And I answered it. Is that a sufficient answer or not? To your new questions, yes, there are well-established ways to detect monkey business from machine-maniputation or ballot-stuffing. Basically, you make sure that the results line up between the paper ballots and the machine counts, and that the number of p…

That doesn't really solve for all the ways you can rig an election. For example in '2000 Mules' they propose that democratically aligned charities like homeless shelters and elder care homes would gather ballots from their vulnerable populations, fill them out for their preferred candidates, and then have mules distribute those ballots to publicly accessible ballot boxes 3 to 5 at a time. They have some interesting f…

>For example in '2000 Mules' they propose that democratically aligned charities like homeless shelters and elder care homes would gather ballots from their vulnerable populations, fill them out for their preferred candidates, and then have mules distribute those ballots to publicly accessible ballot boxes 3 to 5 at a time.

In order for this to actually work, the nefarious operatives would need to forge people's signatures on those mail ballots. Otherwise, they'll fail the signature match at the elections returns center and the ballot will get tossed. Here's a good rundown of how that works, at least in California [1]. Do you have reason to believe that the signature check doesn't work?

Stepping back, rigging elections by stuffing mail ballots makes zero sense from a cost/benefit perspective. It requires massive amounts of effort to coordinate all those people so the plan proceeds undetected. A rational attacker would be better off taking an opposite approach: throwing away opponents' mail ballots. That requires far less effort. I'm skeptical of these mail ballot stuffing claims because it's an overly complex Rube-Goldberg-machine of a plot.

Other than throwing away opponents' mail ballots, is there a viable attack that could actually work?

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YJyQbckMDw

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And still this never happened in any other democratic country doing paper ballots. Simple reason: If there are more votes in the ballot box then registered voters (ideally this means everyone above voting and eligible to vote) you know someone tempered the ballot box. And having more than one (where I live I'm always puzzled how they find the hundreds of people to monitor the dozens of polling places since we have at…

You find a bunch of people that can't or wouldn't vote and collect their automatically mailed ballots, fill them out and have them dropped off in boxes. That's one way to illegally harvest votes. One that almost certainly occurred in nursing homes around the country in the last election.

> almost certainly occurred

Citation, please.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#316

It's weird that you can bribe individual EJ's in Philadelphia like this. In Chicagoland, every polling place has a team of 4-5 judges, and they all have to sign off on the final election result, and all the procedural steps that arrive at that number; every individual vote is recorded in the pollbook. I don't even know how you'd generate fake votes in the first place, even if you bought off all 4 EJs. You can't just…

You are right, you can't make people up, but this has happened throughout history by unscrupulous actors using either very old people or dead people and "casting votes" in their name for certain candidates. I remember seeing a few examples of this firsthand on twitter in MI where a candidate was over 100 years old(and was dead) and voted!

You should expect some number of dead people to have voted in every election, totally aboveboard. There's always going to be someone who dies in a car accident on the way back from the polling place. Add early or by-mail voting and the attendant micromorts from a bigger gap between votes being cast and being counted, and you'll see more dead people having cast votes.

Older people are much more likely to vote and much more likely to die.

I'm aware that votes cast in the name of the long-deceased has been used for fraud in the past. But some of number of votes cast by dead people should be expected! Just way below the number needed to influence elections.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#317
post #31

They make it sound so simple: Bribe the Judge of Elections who oversees everything. Dilute the vote tallies by using the voting machines to increment the votes for specific candidates. Certify that the fake results are correct. Lie if anybody asks. This person did this with 2 separate judges. Why is it so easy?

Your ideology allows you to lie and cheat because you know that outcome is what's best

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's two steps to the process: Step one, check the signature, the voter roles, and remove the envelope. Throw the ballot into the bin to be counted. Step two, count the ballot. This ballot now has no identifiable information on it at all. There's no way to verify that a person's ballot was correctly tallied. So if you wanted to ballot stuff, you could do so prior to step two. Recounts wouldn't identify fraud, you'…

And still this never happened in any other democratic country doing paper ballots. Simple reason: If there are more votes in the ballot box then registered voters (ideally this means everyone above voting and eligible to vote) you know someone tempered the ballot box. And having more than one (where I live I'm always puzzled how they find the hundreds of people to monitor the dozens of polling places since we have at…

I vote but I don’t vote in every single election that I can due to other obligations.

Their fraud used the voter information of real people who they expect to simply not come to the polling station. It’s hard to catch. If you notice double voting from when the person actually votes then they simply throw out both votes (legitimate and illegitimate).

This seems like a tactic that would work well in a place like the USA which has low voter turn out.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#319
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, confederations of liquid democracies. The only people to make a decision should be the ones effected by it.

Now try to define "affected" and that's where the war will be fought.

Definitely. That's where the conversation needs to shift. Those are the kinds of questions we should be debating on a case by case or inductive basis, not these asinine and useless popularity contests.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#320

> After receiving payments ranging from between $300 to $5,000 per election from Myers, Demuro would add fraudulent votes on the voting machine The most staggering thing for me is how _tiny_ the payments are

That's because you most likely work in tech and not local government where the salaries are much lower
Post reply on HN