Kids are far behind in school • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#311

Post by nemo44x » Mon, May 23, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

AftHurrahWinch wrote: post #301

nemo44x wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The #1 factor in determining if a kid will have a desired outcome is if they have a mom and a dad present. It's really that simple. And that means parental involvement. It's sad one is labeled a racist or anti-feminist or w/e when you point this obvious fact out. ~70% of black kids are born to single mom's. That's a broken culture. White kids are at ~30% and rising and we see the same failure rates. That's a broken c…

If there is a causal relationship between number of parents and children's erudition, then I think you've made a good argument for the nuclear family and a great argument for polygamy. :)

We do have a sort of polygamy but the fathers don't stick around! But it's not hard to see why so many cultures had (and still have) this type of arrangement where wealthy men that can support all these women and kids have many wives, average guys have 1, and the bottom of society has none as they can't support them anyways.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#312

Post by spookthesunset » Mon, May 23, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

native_samples wrote: post #185

croon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're arguing for data examining something that has happened, while all decisions regarding a new virus act on data only available prior. Acting from an assumption that an infectious disease spreads more if children from every family gather daily in crowded classrooms doesn't seem like an unreasonable one. I would also love more data on this, preferably before the next pandemic.

I would also love more data on this, preferably before the next pandemic. There was data from many flu pandemics. It led to the standard public health recommendation being against school closures. One more thing that just got tossed out without a moments thought for COVID. And no, COVID is not so novel that all prior knowledge of viruses and respiratory disease became irrelevant.

Calling it "novel" gave a lot of these "experts" a hell of a lot of artistic liberty to make up crap. "There is just so much we don't know about covid" they'd say even a year and a half into this. Like fuck that is true. You telling me that covid is so unique that everything we've learned about viruses and respiratory disease needed to be tossed right out the window?

Calling covid "novel" is only true in some pedantic, insider-talk sense.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#313

Post by spookthesunset » Mon, May 23, 2022, 6:13 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #16

Any guesses what the long term consequences might be? I have a hard time imagining anything more dire than the immediate consequences of social isolation during the pandemic. In other words, I think the kids that make it through are going to be okay.

They'll have lost a bunch of "firsts". First date, first kiss, graduation, prom, dances, you name it. We stole it from them.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#314

Post by ryanklee » Mon, May 23, 2022, 6:14 PM UTC

yonaguska wrote: post #176

ryanklee wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should clarify your sample. I'm a liberal, was in favor of school closings early, my daughter went to her first year of kindergarten remote, and I was very aware of the tradeoffs. People like Emily Oster have been excellent at raising concerns.

You were aware of the tradeoffs for your daughter. Were you aware of the tradeoffs for children in less fortunate situations? And while being aware, did you still support schools closing early? Do you stand by your support knowing the trauma it has inflicted now? The school closings have had catastrophic effects on children with poor home lives. School for me was a place to eat, and in middle school, even just shower…

Yes, I was aware of the tradeoffs up and down the line. And we should not fall prey to outcome bias. Given the massive unknowns of the virus early on and through the first full year of school, it seems to me we made the right choice. We've created many problems for many families and children, but we were avoiding a worst case scenario of a mountain of dead children. We know now that that was never going to be the case, but we didn't then.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#315

Post by kkfx » Mon, May 23, 2022, 6:18 PM UTC

boppo1 wrote: post #300

kkfx wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm speaking in theory, about schools as a concept. Modern schools implementations in western countries and most of the rest of the world are just about mass indoctrination.

Indoctrination to what? I went through US schools 98-2010, I don't recall any indoc.

To the neoliberal doctrine, to think the present is the best and sole possible society etc. Or in some other non-westerns countries to think the very same for their equivalent regime.

It's not much an accepted topic here, because here is still a platform someone own, but did you see the curios evolution of downvotes? Anytime there are anti-neoliberal posts they get quick upvotes to be subsequently downvoted, often without commenting about why. I can't say it's part of a scoring propaganda technique to hide certain thoughts to many others, I have no data, have done no check to confirm but that's a behavior I've start seeing time ago and regularly observed it.

On general media we know how things works anytime there is a "different" opinion, immediately put together with improbable extremists, ridiculed etc...

I'm curious if others have seen something equivalent and want to dig a bit more substantially.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#316

Post by xorcist » Mon, May 23, 2022, 6:20 PM UTC

giraffe_lady wrote: post #95

nradov wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No that's incorrect. We never had to close schools. Sweden kept primary schools open (without masks) and they did fine. Closing schools was a completely irrational overreaction.

They had vastly more covid deaths than their nordic peers. That's a consequence you can argue is justified, I suppose, but you shouldn't try to dismiss it as "did fine."

That's an extreme form of cherry picking.

Germany and the Netherlands are more suitable comparisons.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#317

Post by carapace » Mon, May 23, 2022, 6:21 PM UTC

oneoff786 wrote: post #304

carapace wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing about this sort of reasoning that really stumps me: Those kids will, if all goes to plan, grow up and be oldies someday, yes? And if another terrible pandemic like this sweeps the world (which is not unlikely) they will be the ones in the hospitals dying in agony, slowly drowning in their own dissolving lung tissue. It is at that (thankfully theoretical) moment when the FULL benefits of having made t…

Everything is a balance. Are you supportive of china’s ridiculous Shanghai lockdown? Do I not respect my elders if I refuse that? Everything has costs and efficacy levels. One quality year of life of grandma vs. the economic opportunity of a new grad. It’s not easy at all. It is easy to claim that death outweighs all else and hide behind naive humanism

> Are you supportive of china’s ridiculous Shanghai lockdown?

I don't "support" anything the CCP does. I think that whole mode and form of government is destined to fail due to their fundamental denial of God. But that's a whole different kettle of fish, eh?

The simple truth is that I have no idea how to manage a pandemic in a city like Shanghai. I'm glad it's not my problem.

> With a population of 24.89 million as of 2021, Shanghai is the most populous urban area in China and the most populous city proper in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai

> Do I not respect my elders if I refuse that?

Do you live in Shanghai?

> One quality year of life of grandma vs. the economic opportunity of a new grad. It’s not easy at all. It is easy to claim that death outweighs all else and hide behind naive humanism

It's very easy for me: my mother is in the most-at-risk category. When her time comes I want it to be peaceful and painless, hopefully in her sleep. I do not want her to lungs to dissolve and drown her.

The "economic opportunity" can go screw. Don't sacrifice my mom for that person's extra money. There are over a half dozen empty apartments next to our house, and dozens of families living in RV's a few blocks away. I make six figures and can't afford a to buy a home. You want me to risk my mom for someone else's "economic opportunity"? And you think I'm naive?

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#318

Post by xorcist » Mon, May 23, 2022, 6:22 PM UTC

ryanklee wrote: post #314

yonaguska wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were aware of the tradeoffs for your daughter. Were you aware of the tradeoffs for children in less fortunate situations? And while being aware, did you still support schools closing early? Do you stand by your support knowing the trauma it has inflicted now? The school closings have had catastrophic effects on children with poor home lives. School for me was a place to eat, and in middle school, even just shower…

Yes, I was aware of the tradeoffs up and down the line. And we should not fall prey to outcome bias. Given the massive unknowns of the virus early on and through the first full year of school, it seems to me we made the right choice. We've created many problems for many families and children, but we were avoiding a worst case scenario of a mountain of dead children. We know now that that was never going to be the cas…

Do you still think it was the right choice in retrospect?

There were no reports of "a mountain of dead children" anywhere in the world.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#319

Post by carapace » Mon, May 23, 2022, 6:23 PM UTC

xorcist wrote: post #306

carapace wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing about this sort of reasoning that really stumps me: Those kids will, if all goes to plan, grow up and be oldies someday, yes? And if another terrible pandemic like this sweeps the world (which is not unlikely) they will be the ones in the hospitals dying in agony, slowly drowning in their own dissolving lung tissue. It is at that (thankfully theoretical) moment when the FULL benefits of having made t…

What you say makes sense as "don't visit the elderly". Not as "don't visit school".

That's not how contagion works.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#320

Post by ryanklee » Mon, May 23, 2022, 6:28 PM UTC

xorcist wrote: post #318

ryanklee wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I was aware of the tradeoffs up and down the line. And we should not fall prey to outcome bias. Given the massive unknowns of the virus early on and through the first full year of school, it seems to me we made the right choice. We've created many problems for many families and children, but we were avoiding a worst case scenario of a mountain of dead children. We know now that that was never going to be the cas…

Do you still think it was the right choice in retrospect? There were no reports of "a mountain of dead children" anywhere in the world.

Again, we should not fall prey to resulting.

It's not about what we did know, it's about what we didn't. Early on, we had no idea how the virus was interacting with children and the school system. Being under-cautious would have been the wrong move, because the worst case scenario was horrifying.