Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#311

Post by lolsal » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

jasonlotito wrote: post #269

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

> Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? No. Online whiteboards have benefits that in-person whiteboard sessions do not, obviously. > There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? No, obviously there is value in having lunches together with your colleagues, just as there are downsides. > There is no value in body…

> No. Online whiteboards have benefits that in-person whiteboard sessions do not, obviously.

Is it obvious though? They're garbage for most of the teams I've worked with. They're tolerable to the rest.

> No, obviously there is value in having lunches together with your colleagues, just as there are downsides.

Ok, but I'm asserting some valuable things being lost by going fully remote only, it doesn't do either side of the argument any good to be so ambiguous and non-committal to a point.

> There is value in body language, just as there is probably more value in well-written communication.

Fair point! I don't know that I have ever, anywhere, read any informal text or technical document that could communicate the nuances of body language effectively and entirely though. I'm jealous that you work with such perfect communicators!

> Many people who oppose returning to the office would agree with you. It's a much-improved work experience.

I totally agree, it is much improved, even if we lost a lot of valuable things in the transition.

> A predominantly WFH experience is, in pretty much all your examples, a better experience than working every day from the office. Suggesting it's merely as good as working form the office does it a great disservice.

I did not do any such thing. I'm saying fully remote work is great, but we're losing a lot, so let's not pretend that we aren't. There are facets to in-person work that are completely lost and not translatable to fully remote work.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#312

Post by danaris » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

scottLobster wrote: post #298

sam0x17 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unapologetically, yes, and I'd take it a step further. Often the online version is more fun and more interactive than a bunch of people uncomfortably thrust into the same room. There are things people suddenly become comfortable saying and doing that they wouldn't normally say or do in person. If you've grown up with gamer friends you know exactly what I'm talking about -- seeing someone's silly avatar light up when…

Coddling social anxiety is not a good argument for WFH. There's a difference between introversion (needing time away from people to recharge) and social anxiety (not speaking up or interacting differently in person vs online). Unless you're banking on some cyberpunk future where people only ever interact online, social anxiety is a maladaptive disorder to be confronted, not a personality quirk. And FYI there are plen…

"Coddling?"

Social anxiety is a genuine mental illness, and a protected disability. This kind of arrogant, ableist crap is exactly why we need to destroy the cultural norm that everybody being in the office all the time is the only way to do work.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#313

Post by bentcorner » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

roflchoppa wrote: post #251

jedberg wrote: post #234

As a Cupertino resident, I'm pretty upset with their WFH policy. At the very least they should have let small teams choose their in office days. Now I need to keep track of which days of the week they have to be in the office, because traffic in Cupertino will be 2x-3x worse on the days they are in the office. Their choice of forcing everyone back on the same day is not only bad for their workers, but it's bad for al…

This work from office thing is really killing travel times in the Bay Area. 237/880 is almost back to pre-pandemic levels, the HOV lanes are making the problems worse.

Seattle area has the same issue. My job encouraged return to office end of March (and I suspect other employers in the area had similar timelines) and traffic has been steadily getting worse ever since.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#314

Post by conjecTech » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

Insisting on a new solution being "exactly the same" to adopt it pretty much ensures you will never leave the status quo.

All changes in complex systems have tradeoffs. In-person whiteboard sessions can be exhilarating. They also tend to produce imprecise (or no) artifacts that rely heavily on the context of the meeting for interpretation.

I noticed that when our team went remote during COVID and ideation was done by async contributions to design docs, the completeness and reliability of our designs went way up. But again, it's never all positive. If there was a design that was underspecified or not fully understood by the team member leading it, the siloing could lead to analysis paralysis.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#315

Post by richwater » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

hbosch wrote: post #185

azth wrote: post #141

> and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce. Does anyone take tossing around words like this seriously anymore? I am pro working remotely, but this is just ridiculous.

It might seem exhausting, or annoying, or overly descriptive... but it is true and I find it hard to dispute.

how exactly does making people come to the office result in a more white workforce?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#316

Post by not2b » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #200

I should preface my comment by saying that I generally agree that full WFH is a very reasonable request, but I can only partly follow their reasoning on the diversity factor: > "... will change the makeup of our workforce [to] younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" Was this an issue before COVID? I can see how this policy might help shape the workforce, but not how it would chan…

Yes, it was an issue before COVID, but people who are disabled, or people who have processing differences that make dealing with the distractions of an open plan office extremely difficult (that's the "neuro-normative" part), or people who have to juggle children and a job, or people who can't afford to live close enough to have a short commute, had it much better when working from home and naturally don't want to give that up.

And for some people it's the other way around. I have a colleague who has two young children and a small apartment, and it was very tough for him when work from home and school from home was mandatory.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#317

Post by jeffbee » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

roflchoppa wrote: post #251

jedberg wrote: post #234

As a Cupertino resident, I'm pretty upset with their WFH policy. At the very least they should have let small teams choose their in office days. Now I need to keep track of which days of the week they have to be in the office, because traffic in Cupertino will be 2x-3x worse on the days they are in the office. Their choice of forcing everyone back on the same day is not only bad for their workers, but it's bad for al…

This work from office thing is really killing travel times in the Bay Area. 237/880 is almost back to pre-pandemic levels, the HOV lanes are making the problems worse.

Explain how the HOV lanes are making it worse?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#318

Post by lolsal » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

jasonlotito wrote: post #272

lolsal wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that a lot of those things can be replaced with new techniques as time goes on. Just because this is how we did things yesterday doesn't mean there aren't better ways to do this ... This is a totally fair point, but multi-cursor online whiteboards are not the same as standing in front of a whiteboard and brainstorming with a colleague. "Zoom happy hour" or whatever cannot replace spontaneous lunches, after-…

> "Zoom happy hour" or whatever cannot replace spontaneous lunches, after-work drinks, pre-work coffees, etc. You keep listing the benefits as if they are problems.

I don't think I understand your comment here - zoom happy hours are not a benefit to me, the other things that they try to replace have more benefit to me.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#319

Post by ren_engineer » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

can anyone honestly say trying to code in a open office is equivalent to being able to actually focus and write code without distraction in your own office?

There's tradeoffs to everything, the market is going to decide whether remote work is viable or not. Maybe the Apple tier companies can force office work, but startups that are remote are going to be able to snag some great talent who refuse to waste hours of their lives commuting

in my experience the people pushing for return to office are 95% managers who are feeling exposed that they don't really do much and potentially aren't needed. Also people who relied on office politics to survive rather than actually being good at their job

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#320

Post by lowbloodsugar » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

azth wrote: post #141

> and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce. Does anyone take tossing around words like this seriously anymore? I am pro working remotely, but this is just ridiculous.

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