I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled • Hacker News Board

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#311

Post by Apocryphon » Tue, May 25, 2021, 7:16 AM UTC

babesh wrote: post #309

Apocryphon wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair, but a lot of the anecdote details you mentioned aren't really attributable to the increase in violent crime. As mentioned elsewhere, Walgreens closing might be caused by economic downturn impacting a business strategy of market saturation ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27273139 and second child post). The city also feels dead because tourism everywhere in the U.S. is currently dead. SF Chinatown is most…

I probably wasn’t clear enough. I think there has been an increase in property crime in the suburbs but their violent crime rate doesn’t seem to have increased as much as it has in the cities. Violent crime has increased in the cities based on statistics that I have read. Walgreens is probably multifactor but it is guaranteed that the shoplifting hurt badly. Yes the cities are dead partly due to lost of tourism. Howe…

I think the problem ailing cities is density. East Bay real estate booming while SF prices declining is possibly effect and cause. A tiny apartment in a dense city is not a great place to be in during a quarantine. And correct, the end to all of those commercial real estate leases means much less money going into the economy. New York and other big cities are facing the same doom-and-gloom narrative:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/12/opinion/New-York-San-Fran...

So yes, SF's crime issues are a pervasive problem. But the current decline ultimately all come down to economic factors and simple geography. Maybe Boudin has exacerbated things, but he has been in office for a minute compared to the past decade of spiraling property crime in the city.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#312

Post by Clewza313 » Tue, May 25, 2021, 7:17 AM UTC

ggreer wrote: post #180

Clewza313 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California already incarcerates 5x more people than any European country, and 10x more than the Nordics: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/profiles/CA.html There are many, many problems in CA, but putting more people in jail is not going to solve any of them.

Isn’t our crime 5x more? The only way to get the same incarceration rate would be to imprison criminals 1/5th as much as Europeans do.

Or, you know, fix problems earlier down the line so you don't get 5x more crime.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#313

Post by dude187 » Tue, May 25, 2021, 7:18 AM UTC

ironman1478 wrote: post #244

aronowb14 wrote: post #73

Is anybody else getting tired of the constant stream of inflammatory posts ragging on San Francisco or the Bay Area? I feel like I've been seeing one every one or two days that make it to the top of HN. These types of posts just seem to fit into this ongoing narrative that SF (and relatedly, silicon valley), are all falling apart due to poor governance. It's beginning to feel like a strong echo chamber in here. What…

I think a big part of the SF hate is that it's ostensibly a liberal place, when it's really a conservative city. It has horrible housing policies and isn't actually racially equal when you look at the wealth distribution within the city. I think SF's external perception makes it a target for vitriol from right wing people on the internet. SF has lots of problems to be clear, especially on the east side of the city.

What about it (other than some choice outcomes) makes it a "conservative city"? Is it political policies? If so, can you name some? Is it the mentality of the residents? If so, what are some of those conservative mentalities?

If it's just the outcomes you're talking about, what are some "liberal cities" with better outcomes that you compare against? I'd be interested in what those liberal cities are and how their outcomes differ.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#314

Post by ayngg » Tue, May 25, 2021, 7:19 AM UTC

As a casual outside observer, it feels like a lot of people are throwing the blame in one direction or another, but while crime may be bad in SF, the level of crime in general is bad in most metro areas in the United States when compared to other developed nations. So there are probably bigger, more fundamental issues at play. SF itself is interesting in that they are so wealthy, and so much power is centralized there, yet it feels like their policy is either ineffective or makes things worse. Like how can a city so rich have things like a feces problem so bad that people make poop maps to track it, and rows of people abusing drugs in bart stations during the day?

It isn't just crime, it seems like there is so much "societal debt," issues that needed to be addressed but were instead kicked down the road. Policy makers are either paralyzed/ gridlocked and cannot even attempt to fix things because they are already in over their head with all the accumulated problems that appear to be festering and getting worse, or they have been captured by powerful interest groups that prescribe selfish policies at the expense of the public. This leads to whatever actual policy happening being something that is akin to releasing a bunch of coyotes to solve the rabbit problem, only then to be left with a coyote problem, escalating up the chain of trying to solve smaller problems while simultaneously introducing larger ones.

The crime, working and middle class insecurity, homelessness, issues with law enforcement, overwhelmed judiciary, captured/ gridlocked legislature, drug abuse, the crisis in mental health, race and demographic changes and whatever else. All of things are big issues, and the United States is dealing with them all at once, causing all of them to cascade into each other and exacerbate everything. It is probably so overwhelming that it is extremely difficult to address in a system that requires elect-ability in the short term. It is probably really hard to get elected on a platform of completing step 1 of a 50 step platform that would take years more than you have to implement. On top of it all, these things can hardly be discussed in when everything is so polarized, everyone is too busy preaching to their base and blaming the other, and they are all pretty much is in a continuous state of whiplash from the spin of news media working in overdrive, who are themselves also fighting for their own existence too. For most people, things probably feel like they have been falling apart for years, decades even, while the well off have hardly noticed a difference at all. I don't even know how you would begin to dissect this situation.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#315

Post by Clewza313 » Tue, May 25, 2021, 7:20 AM UTC

throw1123581321 wrote: post #178

Clewza313 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California already incarcerates 5x more people than any European country, and 10x more than the Nordics: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/profiles/CA.html There are many, many problems in CA, but putting more people in jail is not going to solve any of them.

> California already incarcerates 5x more people than any European country, and 10x more than the Nordics Well, most European and Nordic countries don't have 13% of the population committing 52% of the violent crime. So this is kind of an unfair comparison.

Why? Immigrants, various ethnic and social minorities, and repeat offenders are overrepresented in Europe's crime stats as well. If anything, Europe tends to have much shorter sentences, so reoffenders can commit more crimes.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#316

Post by smsm42 » Tue, May 25, 2021, 7:20 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #271

smsm42 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It mostly does not. San Jose still has deep trouble with homeless camps, that is getting worse (and more widespread) year by year, so I imagine crime will get worse - thought not as bad as in SF, most Valley municipalities aren't as insane as the shining beacon of insanity in San Francisco, neither their inhabitants would likely tolerate these levels of craziness for long.

If it's anything like the smaller cities in LA county, they probably use the police to push off the homeless across the border. Culver city and santa monica are notorious for this practice.

Judging by the size of the camps and the amount of stuff there, the police is not moving anybody anywhere. Pre-pandemic, there was a cleanup effort every 4-6 months where things went back to the usual within a week or so. Last year, not even that.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#317

Post by asdff » Tue, May 25, 2021, 7:24 AM UTC

esyir wrote: post #195

asdff wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's baffling how short we are on the services we need in the richest state in the richest nation. LA county alone is anticipated to have over 100,000 homeless in the next few years. That's the population of Burbank. They aren't exactly sure how much over as they couldn't do the annual count this year, but COVID related job loss and expiring benefits should be of no help.

There's one huge issue here though, especially for a nation as liberty focused as the US. Many of the mentally ill, especially at higher levels of severity, do not seek nor desire treatment. How would one balance the issue of disrupted mental health, with clear impediments of decision-making, against violations of personal liberty, such as with forcible commitment.

Ideally we would look at things analytically. If you've been hit by a car and are unconcious and unable to consent to treatment, you are still treated. It should be that if you are mentally ill and unable to consent to treatment, you should still be treated. If one day I lose my mind and I am on my own on the street, I would hope that I would get taken to treatment rather than be allowed to die on my own.

It's time we put virtue signalling aside when it comes to medical treatment. If someone is experiencing hypothermia and not in the right state of mind, we don't allow them to strip off their clothes in confusion even if that is the natural stress response to hypothermia, we hold them down and get them warm and well. If your friend is drunk and belligerent, you keep them home where they can sober up safely instead of letting them wander into traffic, even if they try and wrestle away. We should do the same for those suffering from mental illness, who due to their illness are in no state to care for their wellbeing, and we should do what we can to treat them until they are in the right state of mind.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#318

Post by ALittleLight » Tue, May 25, 2021, 7:25 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #293

ALittleLight wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do the courts mean by "in the presence?" Although they have not had occasion to elaborate much, they have said that the crime must have been "apparent to the senses," but that this requirement should be interpreted "liberally." Thus, it will be satisfied if the citizen was aware of circumstances from which he could reasonably infer that a crime was occurring in his presence - https://le.alcoda.org/publications/f…

> What do the courts mean by "in the presence?" Even the most liberal definition doesn’t include the arrestor being only aware of the crime after the arrest (even the looser felony citizen arrest rules require both knowledge of the offense and reasonable belief that the arrestee committed it, as well as, as in the misdemeanor case, actual guilt.)

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I think it is perfectly obvious that if you witness theft taking place then the crime is taking place "in your presence".

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#319

Post by jwilber » Tue, May 25, 2021, 7:26 AM UTC

tayo42 wrote: post #169

aronowb14 wrote: post #73

Is anybody else getting tired of the constant stream of inflammatory posts ragging on San Francisco or the Bay Area? I feel like I've been seeing one every one or two days that make it to the top of HN. These types of posts just seem to fit into this ongoing narrative that SF (and relatedly, silicon valley), are all falling apart due to poor governance. It's beginning to feel like a strong echo chamber in here. What…

Yeah its tiring to see the negativity. Ill share my thought that's likely to attract some negative attention... I think it's interesting this shows up a lot on tech discussion site. I see it here, I see similar sentiments on reddit too. Some of it I'm willing to bet is based in insecurity. Sf and the bay area is where a lot of the best work, hardest to get jobs are, prestigious companies exist and compensation is hig…

“We end up with these discussions not based in reality.”

I can assure you that these discussions, while anecdotal, are in aggregate largely based in reality.

I’m very liberal and enjoy some aspects San Francisco provides (mostly related to me being a lifelong skateboarder and surfer). I spent four of the last ten years in Berkeley and two in San Francisco.

That said, I would not want to move there again. Everything (save a few hole-in-the-wall restaurants) is overpriced for the quality.

The public drug use is insane, and itself a public health issue (there were more deaths from overdoses than from covid last year). Needles are everywhere. It’s sad to see people caught up in the grips of addiction every time you leave your porch. People scream to themselves all night.

Crime is rampant and largely unpunished. Anecdotally, last month my friend and his gf were robbed in broad daylight by a car-full of people. Literally had their entire car ransacked at knife point. Many companies (Walgreens) are literally closing down and citing the lack of prosecuted crime as the reason.

Housing prices are tremendous, especially when factoring in the house size and proximity to above issues.

Again, none of these issues are related, at all, to insecurity. I have a high-paying job in FAANG and regularly ignore recruiters at other FAANG companies in SF not because of some personal insecurity, but because my current QoL is far better than a raise in SF would bring. Many of my friends in similar situations/incomes as myself have left for the same reasons.

SF is certainly not the apocalyptic war zone some conservatives claim it to be, and living there isn’t all that terrible. But it’s not hard to see why flight out of the city is such a common occurrence. And it has nothing to do with insecurity. Many people approaching the midpoint of their careers simply want to settle down somewhere more affordable with less stressful externalities.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#320

Post by dude187 » Tue, May 25, 2021, 7:33 AM UTC

danmaz74 wrote: post #297

dude187 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like a lot if it stems from people talking about petty crime like theft as some sort of "cycle". They get tricked into thinking that means you can break it by ignoring it. "Break the cycle, they will stop committing the crime!" With the only voter controlled lever being "don't prosecute crime". It's like some sort of ridiculous over swing from "tough on crime" that relies on an infantilization of those they wi…

It actually becomes a self reinforcing cycle if staying in prison makes you an even worse criminal than before. A sensible solution isn't not to incarcerate criminals, but to make prisons a place where people can improve - and not just be punished with terrible conditions that make you more violent.

> It actually becomes a self reinforcing cycle if staying in prison makes you an even worse

That's certainly one of the tenants that leads people to believe that removing prison from the equation helps. I think that it relies on the false presumption that going after theft equals prison. They should have the stolen goods taken from them, ideally a financial punishment along the lines of treble damages, and locked up in jail (not prison) as this gets processed.

When it comes to "thug took some goods from store" it shouldn't be a matter of holding them in some sort of "improvement chamber". They need a swift and affirmative punishment and to be left with less than they started with when the process is done.