Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing • Hacker News Board

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#311

Post by duped » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:12 AM UTC

jimmyswimmy wrote: post #174

duped wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The office exists within society. Some things exist everywhere you go in society. You don't give up ethics and morals because you cross the threshold of your place of business. Ignoring social problems in the workplace because it is a workplace is how we avoid solving those problems as a society. The office is exactly where we should be advocating for things, because it is where we spend the most time and can affect…

Oof. There isn't room to just go to work... to work? I want to go to the office and interact with people who are the best at what they do, I want my company to hire those people, and I expect them to hold me to equal standards. When the office was explicitly segregated, men vs women, black vs white, whatever,sure,they're could have been room for politics to change that in the workplace. It doesn't seem the same now.…

I do discuss opposing political views with my boss. It turns out these discussions can be reasonable.

The point you bring up though is a good one, and it's why we need advocacy in the office. Because despite the legal protections against segregation and discrimination, it still exists. And it's next to impossible to do something about it when greater society doesn't believe in it, because no one is racist or sexist to their (usually white male) face.

But that's not political, it's just human decency. Equating it to politics, and even worse letting the mere existence of discussion (which was advocacy ultimately is) become a heated debate is the problem to solve.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#312

Post by fukmbas » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:13 AM UTC

eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

> People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs.

> The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work.

> Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work?

> The workplace necessarily is going to bring together people that do not agree on personal matters - but who best align on matters relating to... work.

> Color me naive, but shouldn’t what happens in the office be about the office???

> Shouldn’t we be advocating on non office things outside of the office??

entrepreneur? LOL

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#313

Post by PeterisP » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

shock-value wrote: post #142

stephc_int13 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow.

It literally isn’t. The phrase “protected class” has a specific legal definition in the United States. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group#United_State...

Yeah, it isn't, but that's a bit surprising since in many other places the same specific legal definition explicitly does include political affiliation for obvious reasons e.g. so that the employers couldn't fire someone for being a member of some labor rights or communist party or even a candidate from them.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#314

Post by nailer » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #178

tomp wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Yellow was race-neutral - nobody's skin color. Then the race-ist emojis started... and discrimination sky-rocketed (e.g. there's still no ginger emojis!).

Yellow is more neutral than specific light-to-tan skin tones, but it's certainly not neutral in regards to everyone. Or, to put it another way - if the default for all emoji was a dark magenta skin tone, would you consider that "race-neutral"?

Yes dark magenta would be as fine as canary yellow was.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#315

Post by GeneralMayhem » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

jlawson wrote: post #193

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really disingenuous false equivalency. First, you're implying that all opinions are equally valid. That is... I'll be polite and simply call it nonsense. "Gay people should have rights" and "gay people shouldn't have rights" are not opinions of equal value, and it's not "eating your cake and having it too" to say that the latter opinion is unwelcome. Second, there's a very clear relationship between the "le…

When you say, "all opinions are equally valid", what does the word "valid" mean? It seems to be this word is doing a lot of work and if you explore this your position will quickly collapse. Opinions are generally about moral issues - what we should do, what goals we should pursue. They are not about positive facts like "how many people live in America". In the arena of goal-setting there are indeed no objective facts…

Oh, yes, those poor persecuted right-wingers. They only have checks notes the Senate, the Supreme Court, and most of the state legislatures to defend them. Whatever will they do?

>It is equally valid to want to pursue a global caliphate where all women are slaves to the men who own them and all gay people and apostates are executed, as it is to want to pursue a global social justice utopia.

Imagine being this enlightened.

I wasn't making a legal argument, I was unabashedly making a moral one. You're free to start your own tech company where only right-wing speech is allowed. That doesn't change my opinion that the right wing, especially the sort of right-wing culture warrior who doesn't want "politics" at work, is morally and intellectually bankrupt. Your best argument for your beliefs is that it is not literally illegal to hold them. I don't disagree, but I also don't think that's exactly a winning argument.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#316

Post by Gatsky » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

This isn’t surprising, largely a consequence I think of the ‘Bowling Alone’ phenomenon, such that people don’t do much outside of work anymore which allows the expression or development of political views.

I also think that deep down some tech workers feel guilty about how much they earn (wokeness generally entails self-flagellation), and this manifests as workplace activism.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#317

Post by betwixthewires » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #117

ixacto wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advocating for what things exactly? It might be a strawman, but I’m going to guess and it would be something like an end to perceived workplace raceism/sexism/*isms. If you let in political advocacy movements from the left do you really want political movements from the right? Or is it just ok if the left is advocating for it? I kinda think the left is trying to have their equity cake and eat it too… To some people (…

> To some people (I am not one of them at all, but I understand the argument) any abortion is literally murder, and it as a sincerely held belief as the recent movements like BLM and #metoo were. This as well as other parts of your comment seem to imply that you believe the sincerity or intensity with which one holds a particular belief is one of the most important factors in the merits of that belief. I personally d…

That's obvious from your arguments. You think that the most important factor in the merits of a belief is whether you believe in it or not.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#318

Post by eloff » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:17 AM UTC

sergiomattei wrote: post #303

eloff wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is true, especially of younger generations, in many rich countries. I think maybe because it takes challenge and pain to grow and things have been quite comfortable for a long time for many. It could just be my perception. But I've never seen so much anxiety, such reluctance to do hard things, and such inability to focus. Social media may be largely to blame.

It's not any of those things. It's the fact that your generation likely faced a much different set of problems than the current one does. Every generation fails to understand the upcoming one. Common thought throughout the ages.

You don't even know what generation I am. I'm younger than you'd guess.

You didn't address any of my arguments, other than to say it's just my perception, which I admit, is a possibility.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#319

Post by arvinsim » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:17 AM UTC

eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

For some people, work is life. So it isn't surprising that one spills over the other for them.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#320

Post by jollybean » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:17 AM UTC

weasel_words wrote: post #37

I'm just trying to wrap my head around how skewed a poll taken by "a diversity consultancy" would conclude that: "... two-thirds of adults in America want to be able to discuss racial-justice issues at work."

I think we would all like to be able to safely discuss most things anywhere. If you ask the question a certain way, it might not so much about about 'the desire' but the 'right / ability' to do it without getting fired.

Tricky question though.