AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana • Hacker News Board

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#311

Post by auggierose » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 11:54 PM UTC

caymanjim wrote: post #63

AWS are the good guys here. Elastic built a popular product off the work of countless open source contributors. That's how they became a market leader in this product space. It's how open source works. The people who contributed to the product did so with no expectation of reward except that their efforts would remain open source. Elasticsearch got popular, and now Elastic wants to reap all the rewards and make money…

Just as Elastic chose their license, and then Amazon took advantage of that, so did contributors decide to contribute under that license. So those contributors do not deserve any more sympathy than Elastic. Both got stuff yanked out from under them. Those contributors shot themselves in the foot.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#312

Post by worldsayshi » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 11:54 PM UTC

TheDong wrote: post #251

worldsayshi wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My two cents: Open source is a type of generosity. Generosity is good in the software world because the rules of the game benefits everybody the most when everybody are generous. I believe it's similar to prisoners dilemma but with even bigger benefits when we are all generous. However, it's also a tit-for-tat game. When others start to be greedy it makes some sense to be greedy yourself. Thus short circuiting the ga…

> Yes, open source contributors doesn't expect something back but they can only hope that others at least pay it forward. If they want to ensure others "pay it forward" (also release their source code), they should be contributing to copyleft projects instead. The AGPL would ensure users of elasticsearch, whether hosted by elastic or AWS, have access to the source code of the software they're using.

A restrictive licence limits the potential value that the code can bring to the world. To maximize the value you bring as an open source developer you can't expect returns (to the community), only hope for it.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#313

Post by MattGaiser » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 11:54 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #290

jrochkind1 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> contributions from community Good point. When I willingly contribute to open source with no compensation, it's with the understanding that it's because my contribution is available to anyone under the same terms, I'm contributing to a "commons" open to all, willingly for the public good. If anyone wants to use it for profit-making purposes, that's generally fine with me, because everyone can on an equal basis. If i…

Why are you contributing to projects with CLAs if you disagree with their terms?

My interpretation of his point is that he doesn't and that many other contributors to Elastic might have made the same decision.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#314

Post by fastball » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

mikesabbagh wrote: post #303

What will happen next? AWS will poach elastic developers. AWS will need to show the open source community what happens when someone revolts. They now need to destroy elastic at any cost. I hope elastic has some large releases coming up, or some tricks up their sleeves

Do people really believe Amazon is as predatory as this comment makes out?

Amazon is winning because they've been delivering a better product in general. AWS was a game-changer when it came on the scene. They continue to add new services all the time. AMZN is not MSFT. Why would Amazon need to nerf the other guys when people like them better in the first place?

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#315

Post by parasubvert » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #301

parasubvert wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“They are simply wrong”? That’s your argument? I think you have zero interest in Free Software. You want “Free Software except in the ways I don’t like”. AGPL was about ensuring user freedom by requiring server hosted source code modifications to be contributed back to the community. SSPL isn’t about that. SSPL removes freedoms from using the software for no principled reason other than to allow a copyright holder to…

Hmm clever editing I can see we are not discussing in good faith. You built a nice strawman to tear down around my “They are simply wrong” quote using it out of context How about you address what I actually said OSI is wrong about, they are wrong about the fact that there is no gap in Open Source licensing when it comes to SaaS Sevices. SSPL may not be the best solution to it, but completely rejecting the clear probl…

I am trying to argue in good faith. I’m not editing anything, I just don’t understand your argument.

I don’t see what the clear problem is with open source licensing. AGPL solves the problem of SaaS providers modifying your software without freeing their modifications, if that’s what you want. AGPL is also an OSI approved license. What more is missing?

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#316

Post by marricks » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 11:56 PM UTC

markphip wrote: post #27

I do not get why people are coming down on AWS here. Elastic made the software available under the Apache License. That gives AWS the right to offer this service. Maybe they did not have right to trademarks, there are courts to settle that. AWS contributes improvements to the project. This is just about Elastic and their business model. They could have not made it open source and it probably just would not have been…

This is how must awful actions by powerful entities are justified.

I say "Rich people get huge tax breaks, why??" you say "well that's how tax law works, why get angry?"

I say "I'm a small business getting exploited by a goliath!" you say "well everyone is playing by the rules so it's their fault"

Systems are so biased by large actors and for some reason everyday people jump in and defend them? We should totally take everything in critically but this defense doesn't seem reasonable at all.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#317

Post by fastball » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 11:56 PM UTC

asim wrote: post #65

Amazon are the masters of theivery. The hypocrisy is not going unnoticed. Amazon contributed nothing of value to open source, then they basically stole the hard work of others and again contributed nothing back and now they're going so far as to preach about open source. Please. The sad part is, users won't care and customers won't care because at the end of the day ease of use wins. Elastic are taking drastic measur…

> open source

> stolen

???

https://supernotes-resources.s3.amazonaws.com/image-uploads/...

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#318

Post by core-questions » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 11:58 PM UTC

geerlingguy wrote: post #299

tinco wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you insinuating that's a small amount of data? You've got to be kidding.

I've seen devs toss crud into infra with debug logs enabled, with millions of lines of deprecated log messages, etc., and the infra budget eats their costs. It's insane. Unless you're literally Facebook, or ingesting data from CERN's LHC... what possible use case requires 100GB of text data ingest per day ? Maybe it's a case of someone throwing a Service Mesh into a Microservices K8s cluster and logging all the thing…

It's absolutely caused by exactly those things you've mentioned. I think we could drop it down by 75% easily if we simply had people putting severity levels in correctly and disabled storing debug logs except in experimental environments.

90%+ of our logs are severity INFO or have no severity at all. It's like pulling teeth to even get devs to output logs using the corporate standard json-per-line format with mandatory fields.

Still, once you're running hundreds of VMs processing a big data pipeline it's not hard to end up with massive amounts of logs. It's not just logging, really, it's also metrics and trace information.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#319

Post by pvorb » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 11:59 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #179

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet it would've prevented AWS from undercutting their paid offering in the place I'm at now that would rather pay for it than self-host it. Key word here is would've. They were already Apache 2.0 until 7.1.0 therefore this change will have absolutely no effect on Amazon's business; all it will do is encourage the develop of high-quality feature-rich Apache 2.0 forks while hurting Elastic's brand image - rightly so…

This is where the Free Software, ideology, and the "open Source" ideology really show its difference I view SSPL as a Copy Left style License for the SaaS age. They picked the wrong license in the first place with Apache, they should have used GPL, AGPL, or some other copy left anyway I generally oppose Apache, MIT and other non-copy left license exactly because it allows Amazon and other large companies is leech off…

The thing is, in this case, Amazon's business is not about extending ElasticSearch with proprietary features. It's about hosting the OSS product.

Had ElasticSearch been under a copyleft license, the only difference would be that Elastic would've been unable to simply move away from the copyleft license.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#320

Post by metreo » Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 11:59 PM UTC

markphip wrote: post #27

I do not get why people are coming down on AWS here. Elastic made the software available under the Apache License. That gives AWS the right to offer this service. Maybe they did not have right to trademarks, there are courts to settle that. AWS contributes improvements to the project. This is just about Elastic and their business model. They could have not made it open source and it probably just would not have been…

It's a failing of many licenses where if the binary isn't modified then the rest of the software doesn't need to be similarly licensed. This goes against the spirit and intent of these licenses. Simply wrapping a OSS product in proprietary service layers is antithetical to the spirit of the open source license and not in the best interests of the community.