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AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

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Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#301

Post by syshum »

parasubvert wrote: post #280
syshum wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elastic marketing did not come up with describing AWS or any of the other big tech companies as leeches. That has been around for a very long time I am aware FSF would disagree with my position, AGPL is better than SSPL. As to OSI, I have losts of issue with OSI as an organization, and when they state "But Elastic’s relicensing is not evidence of any failure of the open source licensing model or a gap in open source…

“They are simply wrong”? That’s your argument? I think you have zero interest in Free Software. You want “Free Software except in the ways I don’t like”. AGPL was about ensuring user freedom by requiring server hosted source code modifications to be contributed back to the community. SSPL isn’t about that. SSPL removes freedoms from using the software for no principled reason other than to allow a copyright holder to…

Hmm clever editing I can see we are not discussing in good faith.

You built a nice strawman to tear down around my “They are simply wrong” quote using it out of context

How about you address what I actually said OSI is wrong about, they are wrong about the fact that there is no gap in Open Source licensing when it comes to SaaS Sevices. SSPL may not be the best solution to it, but completely rejecting the clear problem is how you end up with less than perfect solutions like SSPL.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#302

Post by parasubvert »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #275
parasubvert wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think capitalism causes problems with people getting paid for good work, I think you might be glossing over the historical failures of the alternatives relative to the ultimate goal of free / open software: user freedom. Even in a socialist system, how does it solve the problem of competition, free ridership, and economically non-rival/non-excludable goods like software source code? You still need to collect m…

Criticizing capitalism doesn't require being stalinists, so please stop with this cliche, it's old and extremely boring by now.

What’s even more boring is critiquing capitalism when that has actually nothing to do with the problem at hand.

I brought up socialism as a counter example of how there is very little practical way to solve this issue with a different economic system. You’re free to bring up a different example of how an economic system will help the conundrum of preserving economic exchange and user freedom. A Potlatch gift economy perhaps? Except that’s kind of hard to impose.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#303

Post by mikesabbagh »

What will happen next? AWS will poach elastic developers. AWS will need to show the open source community what happens when someone revolts. They now need to destroy elastic at any cost. I hope elastic has some large releases coming up, or some tricks up their sleeves

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#304

Post by [deleted] »

syshum wrote: post #262
parasubvert wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the Free Software foundation would strongly disagree. Copyleft licenses such as AGPL are open source licenses, because they preserve user freedom. The SSPL is not an open source license (and likely not even Copyleft) because it restricts user freedom that have usually been guaranteed by FLOSS. https://opensource.org/node/1099 Open source isn’t about guaranteeing a for-profit company a business model. “Leech…

Elastic marketing did not come up with describing AWS or any of the other big tech companies as leeches. That has been around for a very long time I am aware FSF would disagree with my position, AGPL is better than SSPL. As to OSI, I have losts of issue with OSI as an organization, and when they state "But Elastic’s relicensing is not evidence of any failure of the open source licensing model or a gap in open source…

[deleted]

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#305

Post by heavyset_go »

seneca wrote: post #286
jrochkind1 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> contributions from community Good point. When I willingly contribute to open source with no compensation, it's with the understanding that it's because my contribution is available to anyone under the same terms, I'm contributing to a "commons" open to all, willingly for the public good. If anyone wants to use it for profit-making purposes, that's generally fine with me, because everyone can on an equal basis. If i…

Your comment and the one you're replying to actually just changed my mind on this topic. Up to now I've had a sort of knee-jerk response of "it's Elastic's software, they can do what they want", but I think you're actually right. They're reaped the benefits of open source, including free work from the community, and now they want to claim exclusive rights to profit off of it. It's basically the perfect example of wan…

If a company or a person wants to relicense their open source project, either they need to get permission from all its contributors to relicense their contributions, or the contributors already signed a CLA that allows for relicensing, or the contributors' code is removed entirely.

The "free work from the community" either was contributed under the terms of a CLA that allows for relicensing, or members of the community all agreed to relicense their contributions, or that free work was removed entirely.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#306

Post by ramoz »

caymanjim wrote: post #63

AWS are the good guys here. Elastic built a popular product off the work of countless open source contributors. That's how they became a market leader in this product space. It's how open source works. The people who contributed to the product did so with no expectation of reward except that their efforts would remain open source. Elasticsearch got popular, and now Elastic wants to reap all the rewards and make money…

A question worth asking, has AWS paid retribution to the elastic oss ecosystem with new oss? If so, Elastic are the bad guys.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#307

Post by xxs »

majormajor wrote: post #81
weego wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feel like live by the sword, die by the sword to me. Elastic because a highly successful business off the product being open source and then leveraging that into funding and enterprise licensing and maintenence. To turn around after and go 'we love open source... No not like that' is disingenuous at best. The license choice was always yours to make, you took the one that gave you the best growth model that got you…

Nothing about the new ES license would've prevented me from using it for free in the previous places I've used it for free, as far as I can tell. Yet it would've prevented AWS from undercutting their paid offering in the place I'm at now that would rather pay for it than self-host it. The lesson I'm taking away from this is just use a license like they're using now from day 1. Totally "open" open source only works if…

> Nothing about the new ES license would've prevented me from using it for free in the previous places I've used it for free, as far as I can tell.

While true, personally I'd not be willing to contribute to such a project. Of course, such a license would require legal blessing, which in itself is a lot of (paper) work. What if, the company decides to change the license in an year?

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#308

Post by JCM9 »

Elastic really shot themselves in the foot here.

AWS is calling them out as they deserve too and now AWS is going to run with a true open source codebase moving forward. Ironic considering the, generally baseless, accusations that AWS just takes open source stuff but doesn’t contribute back to the community.

This all just comes across as Elastic having sour grapes for being out competed on managed service offerings and trying to save that with shady license moves. With a separate fork, now they’re going to have to compete on the codebase too as, ironically, the proprietary model against the open source community the claim is being hurt here.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#309

Post by Spivak »

jeswin wrote: post #272
manigandham wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWS didn't undercut anyone. They offered their customers exactly what they wanted. Many of these software vendors have delayed offering their own cloud-hosted versions, often years after AWS, even when these vendors should be better equipped at running them. Elastic is also infamous for data loss and still has consensus problems so maybe proper priorities are the real problem.

There is no meaningful way for an independent vendor to compete with a Cloud Provider offering the same service. It gets bundled in the initial sales pitch, promoted in their documentation and at events, and gets heavily discounted. It simply becomes the default - and (if on AWS) nobody will even think of Elastic after a couple of years.

You compete by not competing. Make your software proprietary and sell it to the cloud provider for hefty license fees.

Re: AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#310

Post by jariel »

markphip wrote: post #27

I do not get why people are coming down on AWS here. Elastic made the software available under the Apache License. That gives AWS the right to offer this service. Maybe they did not have right to trademarks, there are courts to settle that. AWS contributes improvements to the project. This is just about Elastic and their business model. They could have not made it open source and it probably just would not have been…

"It is up to Elastic to come up with a business model that works, not blame others if it is not. "

This comment kind of implies there is this 'free and fair market' that just magically rewards better products etc..

Mostly, it's a game of power.

Large companies use power to wipe out smaller one's and consolidate, sometimes to the near term benefit of consumers, sometimes not.

Also - just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's fair, we really shouldn't have to state that. This doesn't mean that Amazon is 'bad' because they are big, or Elastic is 'good' because they are small or any of that, but the issue is worth consideration.

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