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Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

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Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#311
post #56
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused…

I disagree about the college format going completely online. There is so much about the college experience that is not directly related to earning a degree. It's a place where most people are exposed to new ideas, new types of people. It's a place where lasting friendships and relationships are formed. It's a place of growth that an online experience could never hope to replicate, and that's the REAL benefit of colle…

> I know people who went to college, but lived at home with their parents "to save money". In reality, they didn't need to save the minimal room and board fees of a state school; they were mostly just cowards. They are the people that haven't changed at all since high school. They're the people that are afraid of everything in the world outside their small circle.

In reality, required room and board (usually for freshmen) is merely a way for colleges to make money. The whole "experience" angle is a pretext, but not the real reason. I'm glad my undergrad did not require it.[1] I don't doubt some people benefit from it, but I'm sure most don't. Anecdotally, those who stayed in dorms were more likely to party a lot more and be less focused on studies - lots of distractions. I personally knew quite a few who eventually moved off campus for the sole purpose of eliminating those distractions because their grades were dropping.

[1] I did not stay with family, I paid rent in an apartment. Definitely cheaper. The amusing thing is we folks who had our own apartment generally perceived those who stayed on campus as being less mature. They had meal plans, etc, whereas we were responsible for cooking, etc. I forget what else those who lived on campus had spoon fed to them, but it went beyond just meals.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#312
post #56
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused…

I disagree about the college format going completely online. There is so much about the college experience that is not directly related to earning a degree. It's a place where most people are exposed to new ideas, new types of people. It's a place where lasting friendships and relationships are formed. It's a place of growth that an online experience could never hope to replicate, and that's the REAL benefit of colle…

> In reality, they didn't need to save the minimal room and board fees of a state school; they were mostly just cowards

I don't know when the last time you've lived in dorms was, but they're glorified summer camps for adolescents. Having meal plans and an RA aren't exactly badges of courage.

If you don't come from means or have parents that will help pay for you to move out, then taking on living expenses to study is not exactly a good financial choice.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#313
post #288
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. I don't think that whether real students are interested in a topic is related to how well that choice of study does for them in the real world. International relations, anthropology, women's studies, psychology, etc., are all real subjects that students are actually interested in. Some small fraction of the people who study them actu…

International relations is an actual subject area. It's true that we don't need that many diplomats, and that people might be just studying it out of interest... or because it sounded better than something else. Most business courses are literally fake. The stuff being taught was invented in order to be taught. Quite a lot of it is learning the meaning of terms that were invented in order to be taught. It's not that…

I agree in the distinction you're making, I just think that many of the degree programs for these older subjects are effectively acting as "diploma mills" today because their result for the student is about the same.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#314
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "online marketing" degrees are just part of this category, not anything special in themselves. I disagree in that many of the other topics have a real academic history and tradition, involve the expression of genuinely important ideas. Being immersed in that for years has value: in the facts learned, the overall experience, and an appreciation for aspects of the world that you might not have understood or appreciat…

I agree. And the market is telling us that more jobs in these fields are not needed, while STEM has endless technological problems to address and high salaries for the taking.

The solid ROI on arts degrees is the market saying that they are needed, no?

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#315
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theory and practice. In theory, you could take your college costs and spend them more wisely elsewhere. Internet age gurus like Peter Thiel, Seth Godin & others have been advocating this for 20 years. Want to learn business? Take $50k out of the $200k price tag of a fancy college and start a business with a few similarly minded people. Pay a seasoned business person to advise you. After 4 years, you will know much mo…

I don’t think 20 year olds avoid this path because they lack your insight, it’s probably more that most people can’t get $200k from their parents to start a business.

I think they mostly do lack that insight, but it's not their fault. They've been taught from a very young age what the "right" path to adulthood is. It's hard to overcome that programming, especially since (US) K-12 schools aren't exactly about teaching creative, independent thought. People who come away from K-12 schools with that kind of thing usually arrived at it outside school.

(Also I think the parent meant that the 20-year-old would take $50k from their parents, not $200k. But agree that $50k is likely out of reach for most people in that situation as well.)

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we are completely re-examining the utility of taking out a student loan that many cannot pay back in their working lifetimes. Many? Only ~10% of student loans are in delinquency. 90% of borrowers are making payments. https://www.newyorkfed.org/microeconomics/topics/student-deb...

Making payments is not the same thing as being able to pay back loans in a reasonable amount of time.

Not to mention the opportunity cost of people not being able to start families, buy homes, etc. Go ahead and collect the future economic value of people’s education, but I won’t be surprised when “middle class” America is then too tapped out to support the consumerist economy.

Only people I see having kids are those with strong, secure incomes, or those with no prospects at all. The cohort in the middle earning $40k to $120k doesn’t feel secure enough, or at least not until their 30s.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#317

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

It's mostly a myth that there are tons of lucrative jobs out there which only require an apprenticeship/vocational school/training:

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/09/weldin...

It's also not the case that a college education and massive debt go hand-in-hand. In most other Western countries college is either free or much less expensive.

Finally, I disagree that we should determine how "useful" a degree is based solely on its ability to help someone find a high-paying job. While it's certainly true that it's harder to find a job studying the humanities than STEM, perhaps we should consider why it is that our society places such a low value on these subjects?

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#318
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sucks because students are signing leases, moving crap, buying meal plans, etc, right now. This is the whole reason schools want students back. They’re desperate to recover some of this cash flow. They have huge budgets and vast numbers of administrative staff to pay. Without the revenue from residence leases and meal plans, they’re in real trouble.

The value offered by colleges is not just an education. It is 4 years of living away from home experiencing whatever floats your boat ( frats, independence, parties, sports, friends, etc... ). There is virtually no demand for online only classes above a 5k/year price point. There is a similar situation with private schools. Some of the demand comes from the fact that it is also a babysitting service, forced social gr…

Well unfortunately for schools and students all of those things are luxuries.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#319

I feel like I can offer a unique perspective on this because I go to Notre Dame and we are just finishing the first week of classes with everyone back on campus. It's gone alright so far. All the cases so far have been traced back to off campus bars or parties. However, I expect it to get worse soon as cases start spreading on campus. If you want to see how Notre Dame is doing with cases and testing we have a dashboa…

The numbers, though very few, seem to fit an exponential well, at least thus far.

If you plot and fit the curve to such an exponential, today you should have ~15 cases. Tomorrow ~25 cases. In one week's time, ~380 cases. ND has ~8600 people attending. To get that many cases should be 14 days from today [0], so August 28th.

If these trends continue as is, then ND won't make it to September before closing down.

Still, the data is sparse.

[0] Day 20 is ~6000 cases, day 21 is ~9400 cases, you can round however you'd like.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> working trades or other simple jobs because it keeps their stress levels down. Yes! People take "simple jobs" like hauling trash or cleaning sewers or welding pipes because it's stress free! Unlike those high-stress jobs at Facebook where you take the free party bus to the office, get free food, drink, gym, yoga, and massages, and even have internal message boards where you're encouraged to post about how horrible…

I work for a tech company and I get no free food, no free drinks, we have gym membership partnership that basically is the retail cost of any generic gym membership (so it offers no real benefit), no free yoga, and no free massages.

Time to interview somewhere else!
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