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TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

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Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#311

Post by executive »

squarefoot wrote: post #297
x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound like you are forced to download the app at gunpoint.

Ah sorry, that wasn't my intention, I don't even use smartphones or social media, smartTVs or closed source operating systems/software (1). My point was, if I have to be concerned about privacy (in fact I actually am, see above) why should I fear about a foreign government while my own one is without any doubt more interested in knowing what I think? Of course should one day I become an important public figure, or a…

> I don't even use smartphones or social media

you just posted this to a social media site

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#312

Post by sudoaza »

mcv wrote: post #301
crazygringo wrote: post #296

Good. We have something called "due process" in the US, and the attempted TikTok ban violates it. Due process is a bedrock of American law. It means government officials can't just "do what they want" and make arbitrary decisions with specific targets -- which is exactly what the TikTok ban is. You want to ban TikTok? Great, you need a specific law from Congress that outlines under what circumstances companies may be…

Exactly. As far as I'm aware, TikTok is pretty much malware, meant to collect every single possible piece of information it can get access to on your phone, so I would recommend everybody to avoid it, and I'm not opposed to a ban at all. What matters is the way it's banned. And why. And the current process feels every bit as wrong as TikTok itself. What the US needs is proper data protection laws. And then it should…

Haven't seen any report on TikTok spying, what I've seen is an in depth analysis that shows it justs reports the usual system specs and does it securely (as any app handling private data should) https://medium.com/@fs0c131y/tiktok-logs-logs-logs-e93e81626...

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#313

Post by specialp »

curiousllama wrote: post #264
gampleman wrote: post #121

So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the American market a fair playing field rather th…

The problem isn't digital privacy; it's a fair bit more complex than that. Tech lenses aren't a great way to view geopolitics. The US' international economic dominance is predicated on a (1) pronounced lead in certain industries and (2) a simply massive economy, which combine to (3) let the US set the rules of international "fair play." The US is where you find the thing you want to buy, and the people you want to se…

Well if the current state is zero due process in China, and no ability for US companies to participate in their social media market, then yes their companies should have equal treatment.

I don't agree with this just on fiat from Trump, but the USA is in its rights to give Chinese the same sort of treatment that they give the USA. If you don't play by China's rules you can't be in their market, and those rules are set up to benefit China only.

In this case TikTok is getting the same treatment US tech giants have. If that is not "fair play" I don't know what is.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#314

Post by nouveaux »

curiousllama wrote: post #264
gampleman wrote: post #121

So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the American market a fair playing field rather th…

The problem isn't digital privacy; it's a fair bit more complex than that. Tech lenses aren't a great way to view geopolitics. The US' international economic dominance is predicated on a (1) pronounced lead in certain industries and (2) a simply massive economy, which combine to (3) let the US set the rules of international "fair play." The US is where you find the thing you want to buy, and the people you want to se…

China is already setting their own rules of "fair play". This is not just protecting the American way but protecting the way of Western Democracy.

https://www.businessinsider.com/nba-china-feud-timeline-dary...

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#315

Post by sbmthakur »

sumedh wrote: post #235
La1n wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it doesn't comply with local laws. What law does tiktok not comply with?

Which local Chinese law is FB not complying with?

I guess the one that mandates their participation in Chinese government's national intelligence activities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#316

Post by _8j50 »

true_religion wrote: post #291
_8j50 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-commercial transactions of information can't be regulated. US advertisers can be banned from doing business with tiktok but it is a free app. If someone in China called you and read out loud every byte in the tiktok app and you wrote it down in notepad and saved it,is that speech or commerce? It is speech in my opinion. They can regulate commerce but for software and crypto they can't regulate the transfer of inf…

Effectively no one treats computer software as simple information. But even if that were the case, you can ban sharing knowledge under obscenity clauses, national security clauses, or because it incite violence. TikTok is being banned as a threat to national security, because having your preeminent communications tool run by a foreign government is inane, unless you are or want to become a colony of that government.

We are not talking about revoking tiktok's business license. If I host the tiktok app on a server and someone downloads it, would we be breaking the law? So then it's not bytedance's activity you are restricting but americans'. You can't yell fire in a crowd but you can yell fire in a crowd if the crowd is consents to it and you can ban the provable intent to cause disruption but you can't ban the word "fire" from being yelled in a crowd. You can ban the company but not the information in the app. Software is information/speech until executed by hardware.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#317

Post by sbmthakur »

La1n wrote: post #231
sbmthakur wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The party has supremacy over legal system interpretation as part of the '3 Supremes' order of precedence, with workers also coming ahead of the law. Very few people are aware about this. The party is supreme and institutions like PLA are answerable to the party, not to the people.

US institutions also answer to the US government...

Yes, and those leading the government are elected by the people every few years.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#318

Post by mcv »

sudoaza wrote: post #312
mcv wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. As far as I'm aware, TikTok is pretty much malware, meant to collect every single possible piece of information it can get access to on your phone, so I would recommend everybody to avoid it, and I'm not opposed to a ban at all. What matters is the way it's banned. And why. And the current process feels every bit as wrong as TikTok itself. What the US needs is proper data protection laws. And then it should…

Haven't seen any report on TikTok spying, what I've seen is an in depth analysis that shows it justs reports the usual system specs and does it securely (as any app handling private data should) https://medium.com/@fs0c131y/tiktok-logs-logs-logs-e93e81626...

Various aspects have been discussed several times in the past:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23634138

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23684950

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21725139

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#319

Post by save_ferris »

_8j50 wrote: post #307
save_ferris wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Non-commercial transactions of information can't be regulated Sure they can. Look at HIPAA, COPPA, government classification, etc. I could call a family member up at an intelligence agency and ask what kinds of stuff they're investigating, but they'd surely be committing a crime by sharing that information with me, regardless of whether or not money changed hands. The other counterargument to this is that ByteDance…

That's because you don't own the information in all those cases. Privileged information,patient information,etc... If you are the originator of the information it is your speech. Your spy buddies can't share information because it is privileged amd classified (not free speech). I am not against banning bytedance's commercial activity. But, the reasoning needs to make it clear that the app is not banned, sharing the a…

> If you are the originator of the information it is your speech.

This technically isn't always true either. I write software for a company and even though it comes from my brain, I still don't own it and I can't share it. I'm sure in the case of TikTok, users probably don't own their data either, the company does.

> You can ban their commercial exploitation of information but you cannot ban the app itself or americans's ability to transmit information to them.

What would be the point of ByteDance even keeping the app up if they can't monetize it? The act of users transmitting information inherently adds data to TikTok's database, which has financial value. It doesn't make sense for a company to just keep an app like that up and running while promising not to make money off of it. The compute costs alone must be enormous for an app like TikTok since they have to optimize and cache all of that video. Why would a business agree to keep operating while promising not to profit? That doesn't make sense to me.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#320

Post by yogthos »

falcolas wrote: post #260
yogthos wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, I'd be much more concerned about my personal data going to a government that has agency over me than the one that doesn't. The only time I'd have to worry about Chinese government having my data would be if I went to China. On the other hand, as a US citizen I could be dragged into an unmarked van by DHS goons any time based on the data US government collects on me.

In a globalized world, it’s a mistake to assume that China (or any foreign power, for that matter) has no agency over or interest in you. Especially if you are, for example, someone with even a mediocrum of power or access that they want (for example, if you’re a system administrator for a company whose secrets they want). If they have enough leverage over you (or access through you to your secure systems), they will…

Yet, it's obvious that your own government has the most agency over you. And when your own government starts putting shock troops on the streets and abducting people in unmarked vans, you might want to reconsider how much information you want to share with it.
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