Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people • Hacker News Board

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#311

Post by downerending » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

Somewhat related: I had a job once where my manager unintentionally disclosed to me that several of my colleagues didn't like me (unclear whether for valid reasons or not). I quit almost immediately, which came as quite a surprise to him, and I believe he regretted.

At another job, I had a manager put a list of (fairly spurious) complaints on paper that went to HR. He seemed rather shocked when I gave notice.

If you want to be a good manager, you really have to put yourself in the other guy's shoes and think about how they're going to feel about what you're doing.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#312

Post by amznthrowaway5 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:31 PM UTC

danenania wrote: post #271

majormajor wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds lovely in theory but gets tricky quick with employees who give you estimates that seem too high, and then don't even meet those. And then you have to figure out if they need help, if they're over their head, if they're being lazy, if they're getting interrupted by stuff that's not on your radar, or WTF is really going on, and if (a) they're not telling you and (b) you have no visibility into their day (sa…

"estimates that seem too high, and then don't even meet those" This is pretty much the definition of an estimate in software.

Since the estimates are almost always off, it's a perfect way for the managers to reward the people they like for political reasons, and punish the ones they don't.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#313

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #218

P-ala-din wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"While early research focused on the prevalence among high-achieving women, impostor syndrome has been recognized to affect both men and women equally." "The researchers concluded that the women who participated in this study experienced impostor phenomenon more so than the men who participated." am I misparsing this sentence? how can both be true?

The first is characterizing a broad collection of research findings since the early identification of the phenomenon, the other the particular survey.

[deleted]

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#314

Post by xapata » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

P-ala-din wrote: post #264

dragonwriter wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first is characterizing a broad collection of research findings since the early identification of the phenomenon, the other the particular survey.

so which one is wrong?

"Not all foo are bar."

"This foo is bar."

Both statements can be true simultaneously.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#315

Post by pbreit » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:36 PM UTC

Two things for everyone to never joke about: firing & divorce.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#316

Post by khazhoux » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

As an aside, I think it's best that whenever someone is promoted to manager, they then manage a different team, so that their previous peers are not suddenly their direct reports. It's better for everyone that way. The new manager doesn't have to struggle through authority issues with their previous teammates/friends, and the team isn't disadvantaged by having a new manager in whom they confided info they maybe wouldn't have otherwise shared.

Also, on the main topic of the article: personally I seriously limit all my jokes around my team... and also around anyone I could reasonably suspect of moving to my team in the next two years (you gotta always think ahead). IRL most people would describe me as very funny and always joking, and my humor often tends dark. At work, I think a lot of people would describe me as humorless, or amusing at best. This is on purpose. I don't subscribe to the "bring you whole self" theory of modern workplace. I think it's important for the people who entrust their careers in me to see me as serious, thoughtful, and decisive -- not as a goofball whose proudest moments include 40K-upvote memes on reddit!

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#317

Post by fwip » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

undefined1 wrote: post #144

sudhirj wrote: post #24

The basic rule of comedy, or making jokes, which is amateur comedy, is that you always punch up. It’s funny when you say “ha! you’re fired!” to your boss, but never when you say it to someone you can actually fire. Same reason why parents (should) never joke about punishment or disciplinary action with their kids - when you have power and authority you also have a responsibility not to belittle it. People will take y…

I know you're specifying amateur comedy, but it's not so clear what's up or down. A lot of people think Dave Chappelle punches down, but is he really?[1] "Comedy is subjective, and it's offensive, it really is. And people are making these imaginary rules, like, 'Comedy can punch up, but it can't punch down.' No, comedy punches down too sometimes, sorry. You don't make up the rules for my business without consulting a…

Ricky Gervais and Jerry Seinfeld are both well known for complaining that they can't make jokes like they used to anymore.

I think Ricky Gervais's last special had an extended bit about how Asian people sometimes mix up their L's and R's.

Seinfeld seemed flabbergasted that college students didn't think that "kids be texting and that's bad" was a good routine a couple years back.

They're just bad comedians relying on material that's decades out of date, and blaming their inability to remain relevant to the youth on "anti-PC" culture.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#318

Post by mjayhn » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

reitanqild wrote: post #116

aketchum wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slightly related. My father owned a restaurant when I was growing up and employed local high school students as dishwashers. I was young, probably around 12 and I was at a summer camp that our dishwasher at the time was also attending and I made a joke to him about getting him fired. Ill never forget how mad my father was with me when he found out and how sternly he reprimanded me. He stressed early on with me that w…

Thanks for saying this. I'm thankful for people like your father. I grew up on the other side of that power dynamic and it still affects me in a number of unpleasant and sometimes crippling ways.

I spent most of my career with what I now consider abusive bosses. I didn't even start to realize it until I lucked into a few good bosses. You go through that for years and you become so anxious about asking for things, taking vacations, making any peep, etc. You want to just be as quiet as possible and not ruffle any feathers.

I've heard and seen way worse than jokes about being fired. I started out in the web hosting industry, it was insanely toxic, unless that's just how jobs were during the 08 recession. I was pretty much a kid and had no experience back then, so I had no frame of reference.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#319

Post by Kaze404 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

asdfman123 wrote: post #249

kemiller2002 wrote: post #3

This is sound advice. You have a significant amount of control over people's lives as a manager, and that should be treated with a level of respect. You have no idea how people feel, and it is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you. At times that is more than enough to cause them stress and even convince them to look elsewhere. Work is stressful enough, and you don't need to add…

I've discovered when there's a power dynamic going on between two people, it's usually not a very good idea to pretend like that doesn't exist -- despite the fact that it is my natural inclination to joke about it and downplay it. Instead, I find it's better to be kind, take things seriously and treat people with respect. Yes, the power dynamic exists. Yes, I believe it's somewhat unfair and I wish society wasn't str…

I agree with this. I recently had an honestly disastrous experience at a job because we tried to pretend that power dynamic doesn't exist. My boss (the CTO) considered me a friend and vice versa, but that made every work interaction so awkward (for me at least) because I could never tell whether we were talking as friends, teammates or employer-employee. I attribute this as both of us being incredibly young (lower 20s) and naive, but we still hold a lot of respect for each other now that I'm not working there anymore.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#320

Post by amznthrowaway5 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

rsweeney21 wrote: post #112

I know the tech community likes to hate on company policies and bureaucracy, but this is exactly why you need SOME rules - to protect employees from bad managers. If you have a process in place that managers must follow in order to terminate an employee, employees don't have to be afraid of tasteless jokes about firing. If there is a process that involves the employee (like a PIP), you also don't have to be afraid th…

These policies and processes like PIPs are for protecting the company and managers, not the managed employees. Most of the stuff on these PIP documents are usually just for leaving a paper trail and avoiding lawsuits, anything can be exaggerated to make the employee look bad. Employees should still be very afraid of poor management.