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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#311

Post by kodablah »

hguant wrote: post #93
tharne wrote: post #60

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improv…

>My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Every now and then I get an overwhelming sense of guilt when I talk to/think about my friends who are engaged in academia or pursuing advanced degrees (I'm 28, for reference). The crazy workloads they have, the insane restrictions on how they can do their jobs, and the cut-throat n…

> I get an overwhelming sense of guilt

That guilt is proportional to the value you place on your work-time/daily output. The guilt will subside as your output importance does.

Also, the grass often appears greener, and many in academia are mired in its doldrums too.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#312

Post by henrikschroder »

downerending wrote: post #202
henrikschroder wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and make room for Mothers to take care of their own children. Whoa, 50's regression much? Why not make room for fathers to take care of their own children? > in the care of poorly paid strangers Or you could leave your children in the care of educated professionals in child development, who will ensure your children gets age- and stage-appropriate stimulation, as well as socialization with other children in a safe…

> you could leave your children in the care of educated professionals in child development... That sounds wonderful, but it's economically impossible, except for the rich. The cost would be near or exceed what most people clear working a job.

> That sounds wonderful, but it's economically impossible, except for the rich.

In the US, sure, but there are other countries with other models...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#313

Post by AlexCoventry »

skybrian wrote: post #275
benibela wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in academia, because I do not want to work in an office. I do not want to leave my apartment before 11am Did not work out, since I now have an office, but at least I can show up at 2pm without being fired.

A lot of jobs in the software industry have flexible hours.

Or remote work, in which case you don't have to leave your apartment at all if you don't feel like it.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#314

Post by Fomite »

thereisnospork wrote: post #260
fizwhiz wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me for I live in a bubble so I don't know a great deal about why someone would spend that many years in school to land a 77k job. I also don't know much about compensation structure (ex: is comp == salary or are there other components?) I do know a couple of friends that work at Genentech who comfortably pull in > 200k so there's that.

> Forgive me for I live in a bubble so I don't know a great about why someone would spend that many years in school to land a 77k job. I also don't know much about compensation structure (ex: is comp == salary or are there other components?) comp pretty much == salary (plus benefits, like insurance, 4% 401k match, maybe small bonuses). My take is that the low salaries is primarily due to the appeal of the work - kids…

There's also less room to move. It's much harder for someone whose been doing PCR for the past 6 years to go "You know what, screw this..." than there is for someone whose been working on the analysis of large datasets in say, physics.

And, perceptional-wise, leaving for industry is often seen as a failure.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#315

Post by deyouz »

icandoit wrote: post #65
deyouz wrote: post #10

The article is about women in STEM in Academia, not just STEM. And I don't understand why people absolutely need to have biological children. I think more people should just adopt if they want to raise children. I also think sexism in the US is the biggest factor for women leaving Academia or not entering STEM. In other countries more than 50% of the researchers are women and 40% of the students studying computer sci…

>And I don't understand why people absolutely need to have biological children. Consider these possibilities: 1. A best case scenario is that what you have expressed is a personal opinion that takes your genes out of the future in a Marty McFly fading away fashion as this opinion hardens. Fine. Your choice. More pie for the rest of us. 2. A worst case scenario where this opinion accumulates in the market place of ide…

The average human's genes are not that great as to deserve preserving. I certainly see the benefit from preserving the genes of the woman who lived 122 years old, though.

I don't think it's bad to find sex repulsing. I mean, sex is inherently disgusting. It involves naked bodies and bodily fluids. You can'g describe sex in a way that doesn't sound repulsing.

Besides, people can have children without having sex through IVF. But if a woman is repulsed by sex, I can totally see why she would also be repulsed by pregnancy.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#316

Post by theFeller00 »

daotoad wrote: post #263

My only quibble with this article is that the fact that there is a wall related to child bearing and rearing IS institutional sexism. It's just a different form of it than the "my coworkers constantly stare at my tits and don't take what I say seriously" variety. We've put women largely in charge of child rearing duties. Obviously, men aren't able to get pregnant and bear children. We are, however, perfectly capable…

Faggot alert

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#317

Post by Fomite »

GCA10 wrote: post #15

Thanks, Karen Morenz, for providing a unified, panoramic view of the ways that the standard academic career progression short-changes many female scientists, even if each step along the way seems to make sense. It's worth taking a look at three other professions with long, high-intensity pathways from apprentice to master --all of which have been wrestling with the same challenges. They are management consulting, law…

"I'm wondering if either of those models is transferable to STEM academia. Are there particular sub-disciplines where professional success and sane hours might be more compatible? Similarly, are there tenure-track or quasi-tenure track job titles that split the difference in tolerable ways?

I haven't researched these well enough to have clear answers. But it's worth discussing."

One of the easiest, and most important things, academia could do is make pausing tenure clocks have both less stigma and be easier to do. Like, automatically opt-in for both men and women.

Unfortunately, it's much harder to pause grants, which is its own problem.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#318

Post by naasking »

tomp wrote: post #247
sequoia wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In her article, she explains her hypothesis that women leave top-flight STEM/academic careers because the demands (and, crucially, when they must be met: 20s & 30s) conflict with the demands of bearing children during a woman's most-likely-to-be-successful childbearing years. She goes on to suggest that creating more supports for mothers such as affordable childcare and possibly collaborative academic working environ…

This is not a sufficient explanation. There’s more women in law and medicine, which are equally, if not more demanding. There must be something else - the nature of work (more people, less machines), the atmosphere (less bro, more professional), the pay (STEM careers plateau quickly)...

> There’s more women in law and medicine, which are equally, if not more demanding.

There exists plenty of gender disparity within these fields. Many more women in pediatrics, obgyn and family law, many more men in surgery, for instance. I'd like to see a study of these disparities to see if the subfields women choose have the benefits this author suggest is a major cause of women leaving STEM.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#319

Post by yorwba »

icandoit wrote: post #261
yorwba wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The RT article doesn't say anything about disgust, so why bother linking to it? The Politifact article does involve aversion, but only aggregated with disinterest: "The percentage of women who responded they were not interested in sex at all or felt an aversion to it was 60.3 percent for ages 16-19 and 31.6 percent for ages 20-24. Combine the age groups, and the average response was about 46 percent negative — the fi…

The RT article said that "Nearly half the couples had not had sex in a month". That happens because they prefer to do something else instead. Will you grant that this means that interest in sex has fallen? The Politifact article says "In 2013 a whopping 45 percent of women aged 16 to 24 ‘were not interested in or despised sexual contact,’ and more than a quarter of men felt the same way." Which matches my claim: > Ne…

> My claim was that disgust with sex is rising.

> What do you make of these data points? I think they successfully demonstrate that interest in sex is falling.

You're equivocating between disgust and lack of interest, but these are very different things. I wouldn't have bothered asking for a source if you had blamed falling interest rather than rising disgust.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#320

Post by proc0 »

Nouser76 wrote: post #287
proc0 wrote: post #267

Why do we care that there are equal women and men again? Why does representation actually matter again? I would find it more exciting to see a field with no representation because I could make a greater impact! This whole ideology of having representation everywhere is very dumb and conformist.

Because diverse opinions lead to better end products. Having homogenized groups of people means you're leaving some viewpoints out, and those viewpoints have sometimes been extremely helpful for me as a software developer.

Sure, however this isn't false otherwise. Non-diverse opinions aren't bad by default, and ultimately the main concern here is thinking the opposite, that diverse opinions are always right.
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