We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes • Hacker News Board

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#311

Post by stinos » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:00 PM UTC

sunstone wrote: post #275

stinos wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bicycles are not the solution ... The solution, as this article touches on, is light weight electric transport using the existing road structure. To me this sounds pretty funny: you make it sound like an electric bicycle is not a bicycle, whereas to me it's still a bicycle, just with the addition of a motor. Even a speedpedelec is normally still considered a bicycle here: after all it doesn't move unless you pedal, u…

To me there's a big difference, in terms of urban transport, between a pedal bike and an e-bike, mostly because of the acceleration capability of the e-bike, which is even better than fossil fuel engines. My feeling is that initially the 'e' revolution will start with e-bikes but ultimately will end up with electric mopeds (no fiddly gears) and electric tricycles (two wheels at the front) with seat belts and modest r…

To me there's a big difference, in terms of urban transport, between a pedal bike and an e-bike

Sure, the difference can be substantial depending on model, but my point here was that I interpreted your comment as the latter not being a bicycle anymore.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#312

Post by rapnie » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:02 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #303

brnt wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dutchman who's lived in a few places abroad, the cycling 'problem' is quite simple: it needs to be the norm. No helmet, because neither do you require them for pedestrians. You can cycle in all weather, just as you would walking (a hard mental one, my non-Dutch partner can't get over the idea cycling is for sunshine). Public space design must start with safe (no sharp turns, looking at you France!) and separate…

> electric biking is expanding your reach a few times over. Electric bikes are motorcycles, and I don't want vehicles with the speed and acceleration characteristics of a motorcycle in my bike lane, if you please. postscript: my very concerns for my safety seem to be getting voted down a lot considering that our friend the Dutchman here has given a rather nice reply recognizing the substantive nature of this conflict

In the Netherlands there's a distinction between hi-speed e-bikes (45kph) and regular ones (many speed-limited to 25kph).

The latter count as bicycles and the former as mopeds which are very often not allowed in bycicle lanes and have other rules to comply with.

Details: https://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/netherlands-new...

Edit: See brnt's comment that explains it better

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#313

Post by zeendo » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:08 PM UTC

IgorPartola wrote: post #308

Might as well ask here, but why do bicyclists always seem to blow past stop signs and red lights? Whenever I am on a motorcycle, I always feel more endangered by a bicyclist coming out of nowhere than a car. Can anyone give me insight into this behavior?

It's a similar (but better) reason that motorists pull into crosswalks and don't come to a complete stop at stop signs or red lights or go 5mph over the speed limit. In their mind there's very little risk to doing so.

So many people like to equate this to a motorist doing the same thing but they're so clearly wildly different.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#314

Post by gbrown » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:14 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #303

brnt wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dutchman who's lived in a few places abroad, the cycling 'problem' is quite simple: it needs to be the norm. No helmet, because neither do you require them for pedestrians. You can cycle in all weather, just as you would walking (a hard mental one, my non-Dutch partner can't get over the idea cycling is for sunshine). Public space design must start with safe (no sharp turns, looking at you France!) and separate…

> electric biking is expanding your reach a few times over. Electric bikes are motorcycles, and I don't want vehicles with the speed and acceleration characteristics of a motorcycle in my bike lane, if you please. postscript: my very concerns for my safety seem to be getting voted down a lot considering that our friend the Dutchman here has given a rather nice reply recognizing the substantive nature of this conflict

There is a huge range of electric bike products. When I'm old and have difficulty tackling the big hills in my area, I fully intend to get an e-bike just to give me a boost in those spots.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#315

Post by smt88 » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:16 PM UTC

ako wrote: post #17

smt88 wrote: post #2

> Cars are the slowest, lowest-bandwidth forms of urban transportation. This is the kind of thing I read a lot in micromobility advocacy articles, but it seems like it can't be true. How can a bike, scooter, or moped be either faster or higher-bandwidth than a car? Also, serious question: if electric SDCs became widespread, would it still make sense to advocate things like bikes? You can't transport a family of three…

I had no problems transporting my children, even when still a baby, in a cargobike (bakfiets). It's a pretty convenient way of transporting your children in and out of the city, as it actually gets you to where you need to go. Compare this to a car: you cant really get to the store you need to be, instead you have to park in a parking garage and then carry your baby in the maxi-cosi to the store. I prefer a bike.

> I had no problems transporting my children, even when still a baby

I believe that you and other people do this. I wouldn't do it because I'm afraid of what even a minor cycling accident could do to a child.

Of course I'm coming from a US-centric viewpoint, where bikes share space with cars, pedestrians, and (now) scooters.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#316

Post by gbrown » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:19 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #280

Svip wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really helps that in neither Denmark nor the Netherlands, helmets are mandatory. Unlike in say Sweden, where casual biking is having a hard time taking off. But it kind of bothers me that Danes and Dutchmen seem to be rather disinterested in one another's achievements on this front. There is a lot of lessons from both sides, that never seems to be discussed in one another's media, to the point (anecdote alert!) wh…

I think cycling is inherently more a local thing than cars. Nobody needs interstate or international bicycle paths, because nobody cycles that far. So it makes sense that the interest is more local, and maybe that's also why smaller countries like Denmark and Netherland are more successful at it. Bicycle infrastructure is primarily about towns and cities. So if you want this big push, you have to do it at the city le…

> Nobody needs interstate or international bicycle paths, because nobody cycles that far.

IMHO, this is 120% just a chicken and egg problem. Sure, nobody bikes that far to work, but if you build it people can and will travel large distances to visit just to go on bike tours. In my state, we have an annual event which attracts thousands in which people bike hundreds of miles from one side to the other. Rural highways are closed down/protected for bikes, but just for that one week.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#317

Post by smt88 » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:19 PM UTC

jeffnappi wrote: post #13

smt88 wrote: post #2

> Cars are the slowest, lowest-bandwidth forms of urban transportation. This is the kind of thing I read a lot in micromobility advocacy articles, but it seems like it can't be true. How can a bike, scooter, or moped be either faster or higher-bandwidth than a car? Also, serious question: if electric SDCs became widespread, would it still make sense to advocate things like bikes? You can't transport a family of three…

One reason micromobility has higher bandwidth is that cars typically only have a single occupant, yet occupy the space of perhaps 5 bikes.

That makes sense, but I took the original claim to mean what's possible. So it seems like we're comparing apples-to-oranges:

The reality of cars (single occupant) is lower-bandwidth than the fantasy of bikes (lots of bikes traveling like a school of fish). I agree with that.

But if you compare the reality of both, cars are still massively higher throughput in the US.

And if you compare the fantasy of both (fully-loaded cars vs. herds of bikes), then cars would again be higher-bandwidth.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#318

Post by zeendo » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:20 PM UTC

sunstone wrote: post #174

While it sounds preposterous right now this problem will soon solve itself with already built "bike lanes". And bicycles are not the solution. The solution, as this article touches on, is light weight electric transport using the existing road structure. There's a strong indication of this future in the fact that last year the Dutch bought more electric bikes than normal bikes in total. And they paid twice as much fo…

I agree many more people will feel more comfortable with an ebike in traffic but there are plenty of places without a plethora of ebikes and also plenty of bike commuters, but this change doesn't happen. The "feels much safer" argument is mostly about drivers respecting cyclists...which hi-viz and ebikes won't do. Hi-viz and helmet admonishments only lead to victim blaming. Hi-viz won't make me show up on a driver's phone, sadly.

In cities with reasonable 25mph speed limits and traffic calming then riding around with a regular bike works fine. EBikes are only icing on the cake for some people but I disagree that this is a simple single technical fix (i.e. more ebikes).

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#319

Post by u801e » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:21 PM UTC

anon9001 wrote: post #153

DoreenMichele wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most families in the developed world are having one to two kids. I rode a bike with a toddler in a toddler seat on the back until I was 8 months pregnant. You can also get little "cars" to tow behind your bike to hold two kids. I always hated cars. My kids never felt like a barrier to going far free. My marriage did. After the divorce, my kids and I eventually went car free. They are adults. They still live with me.…

> I rode a bike with a toddler in a toddler seat on the back until I was 8 months pregnant. You can also get little "cars" to tow behind your bike to hold two kids. As adults, I can understand the appeal of being car free, but I can't help but be struck by how dangerous it seems to commute on a bike pregnant with a toddler onboard. I'm imagining biking down Market St, 8 months pregnant, with a toddler seat and two ki…

> I'm imagining biking down Market St, 8 months pregnant, with a toddler seat and two kids in tow. That's a lot of faith that nobody's going to open a car door at the wrong time or pull out into traffic without looking

That's why it's important to ride where one can be easily seen. That means riding in the middle of the general purpose lane and not off to the side in a narrow bike lane within the "door zone".

I ride with my three kids (one in the rear child seat and two in the trailer) in the middle of the lane and never had problems with car doors or vehicles suddenly pulling out without seeing me.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#320

Post by Dumblydorr » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:21 PM UTC

glangdale wrote: post #46

I'm curious as to what planet you'd have to be living on to think that if we have billions of dollars to spare on huge transport infrastructure projects that aren't cars, that it should go to bikes and not public transport + walkability. I'm guessing it's a special magic planet with startlingly good weather year-round, without disabled people, where everyone gets to age into spry Euro-oldsters. Not wanting to kick of…

Public transport and bikes can both be important, the key is cars have been first everywhere for 100 years and both public transport and bikes are massively harmed by the huge incentives given to cars.