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The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

city-journal.org

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Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#311

Post by umvi »

xenospn wrote: post #129
residentfoam wrote: post #106

I have been lucky enough to be able to work and live in several countries around the world. One thing in common I noticed in all these places is that guys and girls don't have time and don't want to commit to a stable long relation. They invest pretty much themselves and their time in their career, traveling , parties, dogs, cats and bitcoins :) ! The mantra is to get rich and retire at 40 years old! Travel the world…

I think having kids is scientifically proven to make you unhappy and greatly increase your stress levels. It’s no wonder people just put off having kids until they can, or pass on having them altogether.

That's like saying it's scientifically proven that people who invest are poorer than people who hoard their cash (and don't invest). True in the short term, false in the long term.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#312

Post by eruci »

What's wrong with being alone? The only problem I see is for people who can't handle a certain burden (X) _being_ alone.

Perhaps a right balance can be struck, but often times it is better to be alone (X) than to be around people you have to make a certain amount of effort (Y) to be with.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#313

Post by blurbleblurble »

I think it's not uncommon for people to experience loneliness because of the insularity of certain conventional styles of family (especially nuclear family, but even of extended family). Various forms of chosen family are too often taboo or devalued against more exclusive "proper" forms of family. In spite of this article's allusion, nuclear family has such strong privilege over alternative, less biologically immediate forms of kinship and community, and it's so easy for it to wipe them out altogether.

From my point of view, intensely idealized, exclusive biological family models are inherently lonely, as too often they marginalize and preclude opportunities for us to explore deeply our broader human kinship with one another.

My experience has been that various organic communities have given me some of the most wonderful joy. My own nuclear family wouldn't have survived, time and time again, if it weren't for each of our larger chosen families, and for our acceptance of each others' chosen families.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#314

Post by kaitai »

nonwifehaver3 wrote: post #215
kilowatt wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It makes me sad because while they have awesome professional accomplishments, they would have been awesome mothers and parents as well. I just wanted to point out politely how strange this language reads to me. It's ultimately the decision of each person whether to have kids or not. This being "sad" for them is an overreach, morally, IMO--and part of the fight feminism led was to carve out a space for women in soci…

Making a choice properly requires having knowledge about the particular options. Fertility education particularly in regard to age is not part of the sexual education curriculum in the UK [1] nor in international guidance documents [2,3] (just Ctrl-F "fertility"). And a recent poll in the US showed that 77% of women did not properly understand the relationship between age and fertility [4]. At some point this stops b…

The statement you reference is "77% of women do not know that when a woman is 35+, her age is a better indicator of her fertility than her overall health." As a women in her 30s, I'll say that every damn woman in America has heard of a biological clock by her 20s, and is quite aware, and many are getting calls from Auntie every two weeks about whether she's getting on it yet.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#315

Post by dpoochieni »

daemonk wrote: post #94
codingslave wrote: post #7

I would argue that the decline of the family is directly linked to feminism, or better stated, the liberation of women from the home and from conservative sexual values. The two forces behind that are birth control and women entering the work force. These two are magnified by online dating and social media. I am not saying at all that these are bad things, just that we have yet to see the true effects of feminism on…

Perhaps the more interesting question is whether the traditional nuclear family is the "optimal" mode of human society? Is the unhappiness that we may be observing with the decline of family a product of this transition period from traditional family structure to individualism? Is our current society just not well equipped yet to handle this mode of living? Maybe in 50 years, this will become the norm and people who…

I'd say it is a natural way of living, but maybe you have been unlucky in not experiencing it for yourself. This debate is pretty old, Plato's Republic hinting at the disappearance of the family echoes much of the current western culture. He figured out you could not impose a totalitarian state while having people's allegiance lie on their family.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#316

Post by joshuamcginnis »

xenospn wrote: post #129
residentfoam wrote: post #106

I have been lucky enough to be able to work and live in several countries around the world. One thing in common I noticed in all these places is that guys and girls don't have time and don't want to commit to a stable long relation. They invest pretty much themselves and their time in their career, traveling , parties, dogs, cats and bitcoins :) ! The mantra is to get rich and retire at 40 years old! Travel the world…

I think having kids is scientifically proven to make you unhappy and greatly increase your stress levels. It’s no wonder people just put off having kids until they can, or pass on having them altogether.

Wouldn't that also contradict the biological imperative to pass on our genes? If having children had an overall and prolonged negative impact on your stress levels, it would also impede humans' ability to effectively procreate since stress has a direct impact on life expectancy and fertility. I can understand that in the short-term, that might be the case, but over a longer period (say the last 10k years) it does not appear to be true.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#317

Post by seltzered_ »

One thing to keep in mind is city-journal.org / manhattan institute is a conservative think-tank (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Institute_for_Policy... ).

The author makes a lot of fair points I agree with but doesn't go into the positive situations - the change where people may have more ability now to get out of toxic families (or at least distance themselves), questioning how we can move beyond just religious congregations of community (perhaps congregation more around bioregionalism?). Or if awareness of resource limitations in the future may be causing less developed-world birth than earlier.

Finally, to quote David Chapman - ""Just as there are mental states only possible in crowds, there are mental states only possible in privacy."

Loneliness epidemic—or a golden age of privacy?"

https://mobile.twitter.com/Meaningness/status/97139760655443...

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#318

Post by hindsightbias »

Nagyman wrote: post #226
residentfoam wrote: post #106

I have been lucky enough to be able to work and live in several countries around the world. One thing in common I noticed in all these places is that guys and girls don't have time and don't want to commit to a stable long relation. They invest pretty much themselves and their time in their career, traveling , parties, dogs, cats and bitcoins :) ! The mantra is to get rich and retire at 40 years old! Travel the world…

A lot of people have kids _for themselves_. There are a lot of other endeavours one can pursue that will bring happiness. I think where we fail as a society, is in teaching ourselves how to find those pursuits, surround ourselves with friends, and avoid loneliness. > The mantra is to get rich and retire at 40 Hrm, I question the circle of people you're surrounded by. Many millennials are struggling to afford the basi…

> and have growing anti-intellectual culture.

From this thread, it would appear to be baked-in as a function of self-selection.

One might argue intellectuals have an obligation to procreate.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#319

Post by segmondy »

sdegutis wrote: post #264
40acres wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard someone describe this as the "capstone" vs "conerstone" model. Previous generations got married and had kids much earlier, and built their lives off of that cornerstone. When it comes to me personally and my peers, we see marriage and children more as a capstone -- something to be done once our student loan is paid, or when we're ready to put a down payment on a house, when we get that promotion, etc.

I know two sisters who each got married. The older one practiced worldly prudence, courted during high school, got engaged at beginning of college, and waited almost a decade until after her fiancé graduated before they got married and started to have children. But now he can't get a job with his degree (pharmacist), she works at some retail job as a manager, and the whole family lives with her parents. He's in >$100…

Where is this? There's no where in the US where you can't get a job as a pharmacist. No where. Retails are needed very much so, you have to stand and it pays really freaking well, except it's hard to cross over into other types. Again, in the USA, in any state in this country, working full time, at the very worse, you will make $90k/yr as a pharmacist.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#320

Post by mmsimanga »

ambicapter wrote: post #283
sdegutis wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know two sisters who each got married. The older one practiced worldly prudence, courted during high school, got engaged at beginning of college, and waited almost a decade until after her fiancé graduated before they got married and started to have children. But now he can't get a job with his degree (pharmacist), she works at some retail job as a manager, and the whole family lives with her parents. He's in >$100…

Wow, neither of these examples are at all appetizing as an example of a life well lived!

I am not sure how you come to that conclusion without knowing more details. What if the couples truly love each other and enjoy each other's company. What if they share looking after children thus having time for themselves and each other. There might be people who have good jobs are able to travel but hate their jobs, are lonely and don't like their spouse.
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