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It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

nytimes.com

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Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#311

Post by blacksqr »

laurex wrote: post #308
panglott wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the tools you need are "listening to and interacting with people in the target language". Human language is a problem of interpreting the creative social signals of other human beings, and there's no way to automate that. With the Web, YouTube and internet radio, the actual amount of target-language material that a person can expose themselves to is hugely, hugely more available than it was 20-30…

To learn conversational language, you really do need to converse. It is a much faster route to basic fluency. Apps like Marco Polo or even Zoom or Skype along with a native speaking contact are going to work more quickly than any gamified experience where you're only taking to an app.

It is a wonderful privilege to have the money and people available to pursue those options, but it is a privilege many do not enjoy.

Meanwhile, for many of those many, learning a new language is more than a fun pastime or intellectual challenge, it is a matter of economic or even physical survival. Duolingo's mascot likes to breezily inform me that most people using Duolingo in Sweden are refugees trying to learn Swedish. Don't those people deserve more emphasis on practical mastery, and less on social engagement? Do they have the money and opportunity to pursue quality interactions with native speakers?

If digital tools could provide reasonable sub-levels of mastery short of full conversational fluency, like ability to read a newspaper, understand a news broadcast or sitcom, babysit a child, or hold a business conversation in an office, I wouldn't complain. But I'm not aware of any digital teaching tools that prepare a person adequately for any of that.

Fine, digital tools are inadequate for reaching full conversational fluency. But should we then let them off the hook for not delivering any level of practical skill in a reasonable amount of time?

Is it really impossible for them to do any better at delivering real-world value?

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#312

Post by ridewinter »

svillar wrote: post #309
travisjungroth wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you’re saying. It is a really weird phenomenon that: 1) Everyone has basically the same problem (learning a language). 2) Many people are building their own tools. 3) Most people are dissatisfied with the tools available. I have a hard time believing that there is no more efficient way possible than conversing with native speakers as one commenter seemed to suggest. I also don’t believe the “procrastinatio…

In my personal experience, the easiest way to learn a second language is to immerse yourself in a particular country/culture and interact with the locals, get a job, etc. Live there for at least a year. It worked for me, I learned English and it worked for my wife, she learned French.

Are you French and your wife English-speaking? That’s what the OP article mentioned as “école horizontale”. The author lived in France for years but her family spoke English at home and thus her French proficiency never got great.

In my experience living abroad, the fact that so many people speak pretty good English is both a blessing and a curse. We could have a conversation in French but it’d be pretty boring. So my friends and I always speak in English but I don’t get better at French.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#313

Post by somberi »

emtel wrote: post #248
blacksqr wrote: post #192

It seems to me that foreign language learning is an area where computer technology has clearly miserably fallen short of its potential. Apps like Duolingo and Babel are nice, but they seem to me more oriented toward making the user feel good about making progress then about achieving mastery in any useful time frame. Flashcard tools like Anki and Tinycards are nice, but they lack enough readily available content to b…

I've been using lingq.com for about two months to learn Japanese, and I think it's lightyears beyond any of the other tools I've used, which include Duolingo, Anki, japaneselevelup, and probably a few others I've forgotten. I've made more progress in two months than in my previous 12-18 months of (somewhat sporadic) study. I think the fundamental reason is that rather than doing some second-order activity like studyi…

Asking out of curiosity and to learn from your experience. You had mentioned "I've made more progress in two months than in my previous 12-18 months of (somewhat sporadic) study".

How could you tell? Is it because you were able to comprehend more of the language (comprehension), or people who speak Japanese told you that you are better (understandability)?

The reason I ask is, I seem to pickup words and grammar but am absolutely incomprehensible when I converse with a native speaker.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#314

Post by danieltillett »

usrusr wrote: post #63
danieltillett wrote: post #5

I think the subtle thing missed here is the effort required to speak a second language well is not worth the effort. Just scraping by is good enough especially if you still have access to your first language. Why speak French well when for a fraction of the effort speaking poorly gets you 90% of the return.

Looking back at my years of failure at French in school I get the impression that French does not lend itself particularly well to scraping by. Any form of rudimentary word-uuuhm-by-hrmmm-word rendering of French is so far removed from actual French (and noticeably so even to the uninitiated, which might be the key difference), that it's hard to find your "scrapping by voice". Objectively harder than in many other la…

Yes one of the thing us native english speakers forget is how easy it is to speak English badly and get by - with many other languages unless you have a good grasp of the language nobody has any idea what you are trying to say.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#315

Post by danieltillett »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #80
danieltillett wrote: post #5

I think the subtle thing missed here is the effort required to speak a second language well is not worth the effort. Just scraping by is good enough especially if you still have access to your first language. Why speak French well when for a fraction of the effort speaking poorly gets you 90% of the return.

> Why speak French well when for a fraction of the effort speaking poorly gets you 90% of the return. Because that last 10% (which is actually more like the last 99%) is the part where you actually create friends, relationships, and connect with other people beyond "how are you?" And people actually start inviting you to social gatherings again because you can keep up in conversation even though your new-foreign-guy…

The issue for the OA author is she has her family in France so she can speak English.

I am not trying to suggest it is not a good idea to learn to speak the language well in the country you live, just that the effort can be out of proportion to the benefit if you are surrounded by people who speak your native language.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#316

Post by chillacy »

atemerev wrote: post #49

The problem with French is that the French are very sensitive to mistakes. If I speak bad English (I am Russian), everybody is still happy, the worst thing can happen is I’ll get corrected, and in 99.9% of cases it’s not even that. If I speak bad French with a French person... may God have mercy upon my soul. Especially if I forgot to say bonjour/bonsoir first (abomination! burn the heretic!)

Once I received the feedback “you are killing the French language”, so we switched to English. But at no point did I tell this speaker that he was “killing the English language”.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#317

Post by bpyne »

kakwa_ wrote: post #276
bpyne wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An anecdote from a trip to Paris, I walked into a store to look for a gift for someone back home. After making the greeting in French, I started to explain what I was looking for. The woman stopped me. With a dramatic eye roll she said, "Speak English, pleeeease." An anecdote from a trip to Quebec city. My wife and I walked up to a hostess to inquire about getting a table for dinner. We greeted her in French. As soon…

As a French living in France, here is my take on it. Your two anecdotes do seem rude, however I would personally have asked the same thing, but in a different way, like "We could continue in English if you want" with probably a slight incentive in my tone to actually switch to English (sorry if I also appear a bit rude). Or Maybe I will just reply to your every question in English. A native English speaker is blessed…

I would have appreciated your approach. When I studied French we focused on reading and writing, not speaking. So, I was admittedly not a strong French speaker. I can understand their frustration. Had I been given the choice I might have chosen English.

You've been to American restaurants and only been interrupted once or twice by waiters? You were quite blessed then. Ordinarily, we expect conversations to be interrupted 5-6 times per meal. (I'm only slightly exaggerating.) Here's a true story illustrating how ridiculous it gets. I proposed to my wife in our favorite restaurant. I chose purposefully an early dinner time so we would have the restaurant to ourselves. As I began to kneel and pull the engagement ring out of my pocket, a busboy stepped between my wife and I to refill our water glasses. It was a bit awkward for about 20 seconds or so.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#318

Post by bpyne »

jperras wrote: post #134
bpyne wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An anecdote from a trip to Paris, I walked into a store to look for a gift for someone back home. After making the greeting in French, I started to explain what I was looking for. The woman stopped me. With a dramatic eye roll she said, "Speak English, pleeeease." An anecdote from a trip to Quebec city. My wife and I walked up to a hostess to inquire about getting a table for dinner. We greeted her in French. As soon…

> An anecdote from a trip to Quebec city. My wife and I walked up to a hostess to inquire about getting a table for dinner. We greeted her in French. As soon as we started to ask about a table, she stopped us and said, "No no no no. This will be in English." Native Québecois here. That's most definitely very odd. The typical scenario is someone not fluent in French attempts to speak it, and the other person switches…

We enjoyed Quebec and Montreal. The singular rude experience didn't diminish it. We're eager to introduce our daughter to both cities now that she's old enough to appreciate them.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#319

Post by rich-tea »

bambax wrote: post #136
bpyne wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An anecdote from a trip to Paris, I walked into a store to look for a gift for someone back home. After making the greeting in French, I started to explain what I was looking for. The woman stopped me. With a dramatic eye roll she said, "Speak English, pleeeease." An anecdote from a trip to Quebec city. My wife and I walked up to a hostess to inquire about getting a table for dinner. We greeted her in French. As soon…

> I may have simply run into rude people. Why did you think those people were rude, instead of, say, trying to be helpful? French is difficult to understand when spoken badly, even for natives (maybe esp. for natives). We don't understand what people are trying to say -- really. We don't try to be condescending: we truly do. not. understand. I get that foreigners / tourists may not believe it, but it is true.

This was the thing that crushed my dreams of learning French. I spent almost a year studying French. I learnt loads of vocabulary, studied advanced grammar and watched films and TV. My reading was good enough that I could read academic papers with ease and I even read some French novels. Then I went to France. I couldn't even get them to understand the word "tarte" in a boulangerie. My mouth just can't make the right sounds. I gave up there and then.

I'm still glad I learnt French, though. It taught me a lot about English and language in general.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#320

Post by hnnmzh »

gerbilly wrote: post #277
hnnmzh wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, can you please elaborate more?

More like 18th century French. There were two accents in common use in 18th century France: the 'bel usage' and the 'grand usage'. The short explanation is that after the French revolution, Parisians adopted the 'grand usage'—a pronunciation which till then had been reserved for public speeches and church sermons—for everyday speech. The 'bel usage' was the usual French 'code' reserved for every day use. It more clos…

Thanks!
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