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Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

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Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#311

Post by seanwilson »

jeffdavis wrote: post #304
seanwilson wrote: post #224

For people saying vegan diets might not be healthy it's trivial to find information online about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan_nutrition > The American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (formerly known as the American Dietetic Association), Dietitians of Canada and the British Dietetic Association[6] state that well-planned vegan diets can meet all human nutrient requirements and are appropriate for all…

"Well-planned" is easier said than done, and requires artificial supplements (we don't have the right hardware for B12 production and plants don't have it). I personally don't think its a good idea for children unless you really know what you are doing and monitor things closely.

> "Well-planned" is easier said than done, and requires artificial supplements (we don't have the right hardware for B12 production and plants don't have it).

What's so hard or wrong with taking supplements or B12 enriched foods you might have daily anyway(e.g. soy milk)?

As far as I understand, our plants lack B12 because B12 comes from soil and pesticide use + sanitising robs plants of the B12 we'd normally get from them. Modern farming practices mean some farm animals have to be given B12 supplements for similar reasons so you're not getting B12 from how you'd traditionally be getting it anyway if you're going from that angle.

> I personally don't think its a good idea for children unless you really know what you are doing and monitor things closely.

Are people that bring up kids with no other monitoring than letting them eat meat going to fare much better?

Is there documented evidence than vegan parents are regularly putting their kids at risk more-so than non-vegans or this is a theoretical objection?

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#312

Post by seanwilson »

lm28469 wrote: post #303
seanwilson wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our bodies evolved to make us omnivores, I don't see why we should restrain ourselves to such extent. How is this not just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy ? > What we need is moderation and sustainable means of production. This is clearly misaligned with our current lifestyles though. [0] > In a few generations we went from "meat/fish is a once in a week delicacy" to "cheap meat at every single m…

> How is this not just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy ? > The naturalistic fallacy is the idea that what is found in nature is good. My phrasing wasn't the best, but I'm not taking any moral ("what is good") stands here. If we can solve all the issues with moderate and sustainable meat/fish/eggs/dairy consumption, or even vegetarianism, I fail to see the appeal going the extra mile and going full…

I'm not advocating only veganism but I think what you wrote was a nice summary:

> In a few generations we went from "meat/fish is a once in a week delicacy" to "cheap meat at every single meal" (see the so called "meat lovers" thinking they're entitled to 2 pounds of bacon a day).

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#313

Post by NeedMoreTea »

kirkules wrote: post #41
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #24

I do wonder when humanity will change our ways to stop wrecking the only planet we have, while there's still a chance. First step is acknowledging plastic is a systemic problem that is rapidly becoming more trouble than it is worth. Then regulation to require degradable alternatives, re-use and dramatically reduce our consumption in the first place. Or do we just keep relying on the economic myth of infinite growth u…

Plastic is just an example. Greenhouse gases are another. The system in which it's a systemic problem already has and will continue to introduce other such problems. And it's more than just that "under capitalism there is no incentive to eliminate negative externalities", which is certainly true; without a way to avoid unaccountable concentrations of power, concentrated power will reinforce itself and find a way to c…

Agree with most of this. I don't want to though - I find it inherently depressing that we simply can't or won't do better. I want my kids to have a half decent life. We seem destined to keep right on trucking until we drive right off the cliff of collapse.

I don't agree it has to be the way of capitalism though, it's a problem of unfettered capitalism. We have more than enough history to know. Post war we were happy to constrain and limit capitalism to give an unprecedented period of rising standards with rising regulation, services and low inequality. Neoliberalism broke it. Rowing back the excess power and politicisation of unions was one thing - removing them as a usable concept for two generations entirely another. If negative externalities can be ignored, then regulate until they can't, even if it has to be an entirely arbitrary tax on plastic, emissions or whatever.

No country seems willing to go first, so we're stuck with the lowest common denominator of international agreements. Agreements where one or two derail any chance of global action and the rest won't get on without unanimity. Which starts to look insane.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#314

Post by jeffdavis »

seanwilson wrote: post #311
jeffdavis wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Well-planned" is easier said than done, and requires artificial supplements (we don't have the right hardware for B12 production and plants don't have it). I personally don't think its a good idea for children unless you really know what you are doing and monitor things closely.

> "Well-planned" is easier said than done, and requires artificial supplements (we don't have the right hardware for B12 production and plants don't have it). What's so hard or wrong with taking supplements or B12 enriched foods you might have daily anyway(e.g. soy milk)? As far as I understand, our plants lack B12 because B12 comes from soil and pesticide use + sanitising robs plants of the B12 we'd normally get fro…

Cows and sheep have special cultures of B12-producing bacteria held in seperate chambers of their digestive tracts. Rabbits pass food multiple times so they can get B12 from bacteria.

Are you that B12 is abundant enough in natural soil? When I looked before, I couldn't find any reliable natural source humans could reasonably consume.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#315

Post by cr0sh »

jl2718 wrote: post #4

Third grade me believed that my recycling got recycled. But it didn’t. We paid extra taxes for corrupt deals to get it dumped in the ocean. That was my plastic that killed the whale. Why did they lie to me? I did always wonder where all the recycling plants were. Would it really have been worse if we had put it in the landfill?

Third grade me was told that partially hydrogenated vegetable oil (margarine, crisco, etc) was healthier for my heart vs other fats.

For 30+ years "they" were basically slowly killing us. Whether they knew it or not.

In this case - with "recycling" - they likely knew what was really going on - but because money - they sold us a bill of goods; though we happily went along with it, too.

I don't think there's any way out of this mess.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#316

Post by r_smart »

jl2718 wrote: post #4

Third grade me believed that my recycling got recycled. But it didn’t. We paid extra taxes for corrupt deals to get it dumped in the ocean. That was my plastic that killed the whale. Why did they lie to me? I did always wonder where all the recycling plants were. Would it really have been worse if we had put it in the landfill?

I mean, the article mentions right away that it's in the Philippines, and the whale's stomach was full of rice bags as sold in local grocery stores. It also says the Philippines is one of the worst plastic polluters in the world. Flagellate yourself as much as you want, but you can't take much blame for this one.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#317

Post by darkpuma »

anonuser123456 wrote: post #310
your-nanny wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you need more than laws, you need enforcement of those laws.

How do you enforce laws in international waters on foreign flagged ships?

With a navy.

Environmental protection is a better casus belli than most wars get.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#318

Post by cr0sh »

chrisco255 wrote: post #60
WalterBright wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My reading was that electric cars were edged out because of poor battery life compared to gas. Edison tried for many years to invent a better battery, and failed.

This is true. Edison would have loved for cars to be electric and stood to profit a lot from it. He was also great friends with Henry Ford. Folks act like there's a conspiracy here. 1910 battery tech was pretty primitive. We didn't even discover Lithium tech until the 70s.

> 1910 battery tech was pretty primitive.

The whole electric powertrain was primitive.

The motor speed controller was essentially a giant multi-tap resistor (such a motor controller is still used for most automobile HVAC blower speed control, because it is cheap to manufacture - though PWM systems are becoming more common in newer vehicles).

Electric motors were brushed series or shunt wound devices (not permanent magnet, not brushless, not multi-phased). Today's electric cars are virtually all 3-phase systems with a controller that converts from DC to 3-phase AC, with appropriate brushless motors.

Major power losses all along the way, coupled with poor battery technology. It is honestly amazing that they were able to get any workable range at all in the vehicles that were manufactured.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#319

Post by delecti »

malvosenior wrote: post #206
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it will happen sooner than you think, with companies like Beyond Meat working hard to ultimately make plant protein "meat" both highly palatable and less expensive.

There are a lot of people (myself included) who actually enjoy real meat and would never switch, so no it won't be happening any time soon or at all really.

My meat eating wife, whose favorite food is steak, prefers the impossible burger and gets it over the real thing when we go out. I've heard other similar accounts as well. Unless everyone like yourself refuses to even try it then it's likely to catch on at least to some extent.

And honestly it seems a bit selfish to not at least try the less environmentally damaging option.

Re: Stomach of Dead Whale Contained 'Nothing but Nonstop Plastic'

#320

Post by QuantumAphid »

mcv wrote: post #140
ovi256 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Among "Effective Altruism" rationalist circles, some of them prefer eating beef because a single cow produces a lot more meat than a single chicken, hence less suffering-year units per kilo of meat.

Chickens are also often kept in tiny cages, often mutilated. Cows are too, sometimes, but on average I think cows spend more time outside than most other farm animals. Though this varies wildly of course. Sadly, growing cattle costs enormous amounts of food that could also feed people. And they seem to contribute quite a bit to greenhouse gasses. So eating beef may be better than eating chicken when it comes to anima…

Supposedly for ruminants (cattle, sheep, goats, etc.) 85% of their feed is not suitable for human consumption. Quite a lot of agricultural waste (e.g., corn stalks, spent mash/grain left from beer production) is upcycled through livestock. For this reason it's common to integrate cultivation of crops along with livestock.
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