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In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

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Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: I don't care about downvotes, but if you are going to do it at least leave a comment of why you think I am wrong. I look forward to the national election where a politician stops what they're doing to complain every single time someone doesn't vote for them, and interrupt what's happening to demand an explanation. That isn't how voting works. " cost a ton more than you realize " - unless you look at the prices…

I don't care about the upvotes either. I care about why somebody thinks one way or the other. Maybe I will agree, or disagree. Maybe I will learn something. But simply downvoting because you don't agree leaves no new information for me or anybody else reading to learn something. I could be horribly wrong. And the process of being told why somebody thinks I am wrong might inlighten somebody else even if I hold to my i…

Not everybody can downvote, so when somebody does it means they have been around long enough

And long enough to know that they can write a reply if they want to write a reply, without being prompted.

Nobody is a politician here, what does that have to do with anything? This entire site was designed to talk about things, so I am hardly interrupting "what's happening"

It's illustrative because politicians are the main thing people deal with when 'voting' for something, and the scale of political votes draws attention to the problem. Imagine HN if every comment that got downvoted had a line asking for an explanation - that would be almost every single comment - totally interrupting the flow of the comment threads. Imagine if political votes with millions of voters were stopped by someone demanding an explanation for one or two "down"votes. It would be unworkable. Voting is an aggregate, noisy, large-scale summary. And now this really is dragging it off-topic talking about voting instead, and entreaties to "explain your votes" to people who could have done that if they wanted to, always will tend towards "that's not downvote-worthy", "yes it is", "no it isn't".

AWS has public pricing, I can compare them to other publicly priced places.

Right. So why are you telling other people they are spending "more than they realize"? Either they didn't bother reading the prices, or they don't understand the prices - where's any evidence for either of those? How is it any more than an insult about their inability to understand the public pricing before signing up?

"I can compare server for server , compute for compute, and all the above. I don't really need to know what our anybody else is doing with a system to understand the raw resources you can get from the services offered and compare them based off that."

Indeed you can. What you can't do - or what I disagree with - is you saying "I can get cheaper compute resources here, /so/ that's what your company /should/ have done". It doesn't matter what you started with, who you employ, what skills they have, what constraints you had on timescale or rewriting or redesigning, what your management or investors would support, what discounts you could get, what your future plans are, none of those things matter, only a rudimentary price-per-ghz is enough to tell you that you did the wrong thing and say I know better.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#312
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. AWS saves us money despite the apparent higher costs because our developers spend more time working on our core business than managing infrastructure, and developer time is our most expensive resource. 2. Softlayer completely f'ed us twice now with down time resulting in a substantial dollar loss.

Developers managing infrastructure is expensive. Get some experienced architects and operations folks who dont let developers use resources because they are there. Amazes me when I see automation stacks with 5x the hardware you need to run the entire production / dev / stage environments

> Developers managing infrastructure is expensive.

This is a phrase tossed around a lot, and I am challenging it.

If you make the developers part of the process then the software that is produced is forced to keep the entire vertical inline with the business needs.

You do this by giving the developers the budget along with the requirements. Developers are smart, they will figure out how produce the solution with the budget at hand. And when they realize they will be the one getting the call when things go wrong they will ensure systems are robust and fault tolerant by baking those features directly into the software they are building.

But I guess part of the process is there is a big effort to dumb down each segment of building software so people who have no desire to build software can simply use people as pawns in the game of business. It really shocks me that we still have businesses built with the core of people coming form antiquated business schools. Where they have reinforce the notion that a business needs to be swamped with a bunch of people who collect big paychecks for attending meeting after meeting after meeting while the engineers and developers continuously bring real value to organization.

Nobody ever talks about that CEO, CFO, or VP of whatever or Director of what ever as being expensive. Nobody ever talks about how to cut cost at that level. Meanwhile we have all sorts of strategies and cost cutting measures to lower the amount of budget going to the very people who are actually creating the value in a company.

I will tell you what is expansive. Paying some guy 6+ figures to tell you the guys who build the software that the company's revenue comes from is expansive. When was the last time you heard somebody outsourcing the executive team at a company ?

For those enraptures and founders out there, please don't get me wrong. I am not talking about you. I am talking about the people you may hire, or the people that other people say you need to hire.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#314

I don't think Google cares whether its users are "passionate" or not. They've reached market saturation, so further spread of their products through word-of-mouth (via passionate users and such) isn't a goal at this time. With regard to their Internet service products, their goal seem to be to monetize the user base effectively, while avoiding wasting funds on unnecessary developer time. To that end, many of their pr…

>Google's cultural fixation on decision-making based on data and statistics will bite them eventually.

As will their attitude towards the privacy of their users. Everyone keeps the focus on Facebook while failing to realise that Google are probably worse.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#315
post #63

I don't even try to understand Google anymore. They released "Hangouts Chat" not to be confused with Google Hangouts, which is not to be confused with their Allo, Duo, Voice, or Messenger apps. On the upside, they shut down Google Spaces and replaced Gmail Chat with Google Hangouts (not Hangouts Chat, that's different) and now they've canned Inbox and are keeping the Gmail app. Huh?

And let's not forget they killed Google talk which worked perfectly and is what we all should've use now

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t need goodwill until you need it, and then it’s almost impossible to garner. How does that saying go? When you’re on top of the world you can do no wrong, when you’re down you can do no right? A lot of giant companies have to learn this the hard way, probably due to institutional inertia, apathy, lack of foresight, and the reality that today’s C-levels will probably be gone before that shit hits the fan.

> You don’t need goodwill until you need it, and then it’s almost impossible to garner. This is the key. Google has my "business," but I'm also sick of it. The moment there's a really valid competitor - and these days, I'm starting to look at protonmail - I'm gone . The same stickiness that kept me with them will keep me gone. I really don't think I'm alone in that.

Nope I've been thinking the same..even thinking of picking up an iPHone which I've never used before.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're downvoted for saying "You, person I don't know, should have used a different solution because of reason X" without considering they thought of that when they made their decision. It was in the phrasing, not in some defense of the "Cloud", which is overrated for existing businesses.

I am universally saying you don't need things like AWS. But I can see how that phrasing might warrant a down vote.

I have a product that generates 1 report per client per day. It has a single dev who doesn't know anything about infra automation.

He got his code running on Elastic Beanstalk in about 2 hours. I spend $40/mo on AWS, but an extra team member would cost me at least $10k/mo.

Never say "never". Many (most) of us would prefer predictable, high infra costs over unpredictable (possibly even higher) payroll.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Office 365 is literally double the price of Gmail, and full-blown Exchange is even more expensive. I wouldn't call double the price "roughly the same".

It’s literally not double the price. Office 365 is $5-15 depending on edition (Business Essentials, Business, and Business Premier) and if you do an annual commitment. That’s the same price range as GSuite which is $5 to $25 depending on version (Basic, Business, Enterprise). Sources: https://products.office.com/en-us/business/office-365-busine... https://products.office.com/en-us/business/office-365-busine... https:…

That's small business pricing. Their enterprise pricing is higher: https://products.office.com/en-us/business/compare-more-offi...

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#320
post #155

Google's shutdown of products and APIs seems to have led to critical level of trust loss amongst developers and influencers. It's time for Google to either fix this or get out of providing services and APIs to developers. Google doesn't seem to put any weight at all on the outcry every time its shutters another service/API. The trust must be restored. Google doesn't seem to understand that when they shut service X, t…

This is nonsense. Gmail is free. Inbox was free. Google Search is free. You can launch a profitable business on Google Cloud or Firebase in the free tier. They built Kubernetes and Go, for free, and it's very easy to port your Cloud infrastructure anywhere. You can translate text to any language, for free. What exactly do they owe you? Not enough people were using Inbox. It was an experiment and now they're moving on…

You're right they owe you nothing, but that goes both ways!

When companies launch experiments and features that people actually like and then take them away, they piss some people off.

The bad PR they are getting from this means they didn't make it clear they were going to discontinue the service in 2020 (or something like that) and make it super easy to transition.

It's pretty weird they wouldn't just keep their Inbox service up and running and minimize maintenance costs.

Seems to suggest they want to make big changes to the underlying data storage and don't want to worry about backward compatibility.

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