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Say Hello to Full Employment

theatlantic.com

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Re: Say Hello to Full Employment

#311
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kept a spreadsheet of when I was looking for a job in 2015 using recruiters. This was after filtering for location and salary. This was all within a two week period. I network like crazy - with people who know where the jobs are. Leads: 16 Position filled: 4 Phone Screens: 9 I didn’t like tech stack: 2 Didn’t have qualifications and didn’t apply: 1 In person interviews: 4 Offers: 4 Rejections: 0 - I took myself out…

I don't doubt there's people like you who can make it happen and have it better off but there's no way your results are typical. I don't know of a single fortune 10 company that even has a hiring pipeline that could be gotten through in 4 days unless you know someone with some pull, and the entire industry can't be friends with that small group of people. Additionally look at all the work you've put in. "Networking l…

> However, why is this amount of work necessary to find a job in an industry that constantly complains about a shortage of engineers?

Getting a job is easy. I used to work with a guy who had (severe) mental issues, did significant drugs (enough to pass out in front of everyone on the job because over overdoses), couldn't code for crap, sexually harassed every person with breasts in the office (long story on how he got hired in the first place). When they threatened to fire him, he quit, and had a well paying job 3 weeks later.

Whats harder is finding a job you'll love with great career advancement opportunities, using the tech stack you like, with a manager you "click" with, and where you're appreciated. This is where networking starts to matter. Job boards and (non-internal) recruiters are automatically biased against this: most of the jobs that fit the above criteria are filled by insiders before they ever need to be advertised. There are exceptions (its a crap shot if someone knows someone qualified to pick up that director/VP position), but there is a bias. I've worked for about 15-16 companies, from tiny 3 people startups to some of the largest companies in the world, and I've (almost) never seen the best positions advertised, except when large companies are growing and hiring hundreds of engineers at a time, and for very niche roles or roles where the company did not have the expertise to train (eg: the first site reliability engineer hire at a company).

Then you also have the cost of job advertisement. Recruiters often take 10, 20 or 30% cut, which can translate to tens of thousands of dollar or more. If you bypass and go straight to the company, and a friend refers you, not only will you usually skip the stupid phone screen and maybe a phase of the process, but guess where some of the money they save will go? Your first year's sign on bonus!

Re: Say Hello to Full Employment

#312
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because most companies aren’t just looking for “developers”. They are looking for developers who know “X”. The companies that are willing to hire someone who is not a perfect fit are going to usually pay a lot less.

That's... basically the opposite of true.

It really is in deed. "Node" or "Java" or "Rails" engineers are a dime a dozen. There are exceptions and it's more complicated than an explanation on Hacker News can do justice to, but generally speaking, the places you'd want to work for, including (but not limited to) the likes of Facebook, Google, and other smaller but worthwhile companies are hiring for general skills, not tech du jour knowledge.

No Java shop worth its salt gives a flying duck if you know Java's syntax. They care if you understand how to build systems. Caching, queuing, service to service communication, algorithms, performance, debugging etc. If you learnt that stuff in Go instead of Java, who cares? Yes, the job reqs and lazy recruiters will come at you with a list of keywords, but that's usually not what the hiring manager truly cares about.

Re: Say Hello to Full Employment

#313
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kept a spreadsheet of when I was looking for a job in 2015 using recruiters. This was after filtering for location and salary. This was all within a two week period. I network like crazy - with people who know where the jobs are. Leads: 16 Position filled: 4 Phone Screens: 9 I didn’t like tech stack: 2 Didn’t have qualifications and didn’t apply: 1 In person interviews: 4 Offers: 4 Rejections: 0 - I took myself out…

I don't doubt there's people like you who can make it happen and have it better off but there's no way your results are typical. I don't know of a single fortune 10 company that even has a hiring pipeline that could be gotten through in 4 days unless you know someone with some pull, and the entire industry can't be friends with that small group of people. Additionally look at all the work you've put in. "Networking l…

[deleted]

Re: Say Hello to Full Employment

#314
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of Silicon Valley in the rest of the country -- look at the job reqs.

Job reqs are a lie, and a lot of jobs (I almost want to say most, but I don't have data to back it up) never even make it as far as the job boards. The ones that do are often not even drafted by the hiring manager, and just written by someone who asked "So, what kind of skills would be nice?". Most companies will absolutely hire outside of what's written. They don't have much choice unless they're looking for entry l…

(I can’t reply to your second comment directly)

Whats harder is finding a job you'll love with great career advancement opportunities, using the tech stack you like, with a manager you "click" with, and where you're appreciated.

What does “career advancement” look like to someone who doesn’t care about management? Career advancement for me means keeping up with the most marketable tech stack and getting paid as much as I can in my local market and still staying hands on.

“The tech stack I like” is whatever stack pays the most and has a reasonable amount of opportunities. By definition, a popular tech stack will have plenty of openings where you can stay current.

I choose to work for small companies with highly technical managers. A small company can’t afford to silo you. As far as “clicking with the manager” that kind of just happens with more technical managers when they trust your judgement. The only “appreciation” I need is to be paid market rates based on my skill set. I’ve had managers “appreciate me” verbally but didn’t push for the salary I wanted - I left.

I’ve been offered signing bonuses by recruiters who really wanted to get thier cut of my first years salary. I’ve turned them down. Out of my three requirements for a job - right technology, right environment, and money. Money is the least important as long as I’m making the median for my market/skill set.

Re: Say Hello to Full Employment

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Sadly, it's highly likely that the current administration will - of course take credit - but more importantly - reap all the rewards (i.e. votes) in the next federal election. I still am amazed at how Obama pulled the US from the brink of utter financial collapse shortly after taking office. Hopefully the next incoming administration will be as lucky.

If the market goes up under Trump, Obama gets the credit. If the market goes down under Trump, Trump gets the blame.

More like, if the market continues the upward trajectory it had under Obama, he gets the credit for establishing that trend. If Trump does something stupid to upset that trend (ill advised tax cuts or tariffs, for instance) he gets the blame. He'd get the credit if he meaningfully accelerated the growth we saw under Obama, but outside of a short bump after the tax cuts that saw a predictable correction shortly thereafter, he hasnt.

It's worth noting I do blame Obama era policies for wage and working condition stagnation/deterioration, which is the thing I actually care about (gdp and unemployment numbers are basically pointless if people who have jobs are living in third world conditions). That said, I have zero hope that the current administrations policies will reverse that trend in any way.

Re: Say Hello to Full Employment

#316
post #312
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's... basically the opposite of true.

It really is in deed. "Node" or "Java" or "Rails" engineers are a dime a dozen. There are exceptions and it's more complicated than an explanation on Hacker News can do justice to, but generally speaking, the places you'd want to work for, including (but not limited to) the likes of Facebook, Google, and other smaller but worthwhile companies are hiring for general skills, not tech du jour knowledge. No Java shop wor…

Most of the worlds developers aren’t working for FAANG companies. I would even say that many aren’t working for software companies. They are working for corporate America writing bespoked apps that just want to get stuff done and want to hire someone who can hit the ground running. If you are coming in at a senior level to a C# position with prior knowledge of Java. You’re going to waste a lot of time. It’s not about the language. It’s about the ecosystem, knowing the popular third party packages that will make your life easier etc.

How many Java developers would come in knowing how to use LINQ efficiently and know the difference between

customers.Where(c => c.Age > 65).ToList()

And

customers.ToList().Where(c => c.Age > 65)

when using Entity Framework or the Mongo linq driver? They would both give you the same result but one is much more efficient.

You can’t imagine the number of times I’ve seen people use a Func instead of an Expression> and wonder why their code is so slow in production.

How many Java developers would migrate toward log4net because they have heard of log4j instead of using the much better Serilog?

How many would come in knowing how to efficiently use ASP.Net Core and plug things in the pipeline?

Knowing the language is the easy part. Knowing the frameworks and the ecosystem takes time.

No one would hopefully ever say a Windows system admin could function at the same level with Linux as someone who had Linux experience.

That’s just like the “AWS Architects” who translate all of their knowledge of on prem deployments to AWS without knowing AWS best practices and wondering why the same infrastructure costs more.

I’ve been a hiring “manager” - more like the architect. I’ve got deadlines and deliverables. Why am I going to hire a Go developer when I can find perfectly competent C# developers that have the skill set I need? Why would I learn Go knowing that the local market wants C#, Java, and Node developers?

Re: Say Hello to Full Employment

#317
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I would like to find a good recruiter for my area.

I don’t get why it’s so hard to find good recruiters. I’ve had relationships with reputable recruiters for 20 years.

I think for some of us it is just our only recruiter experience are the folks who talk to you and never call back who work for a specific company, and the folks who want to spam your resume or something. It's hard to know who is who.

Re: Say Hello to Full Employment

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the market goes up under Trump, Obama gets the credit. If the market goes down under Trump, Trump gets the blame.

More like, if the market continues the upward trajectory it had under Obama, he gets the credit for establishing that trend. If Trump does something stupid to upset that trend (ill advised tax cuts or tariffs, for instance) he gets the blame. He'd get the credit if he meaningfully accelerated the growth we saw under Obama, but outside of a short bump after the tax cuts that saw a predictable correction shortly therea…

The market went flat the year after Obama's big tax increase.

The market started rising promptly after Trump's election, presumably in anticipation of the coming tax cut.

Re: Say Hello to Full Employment

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow the connection between your link and your comment. The user you replied to was, themselves, replying to another user making appeals to expertise about what "the literature" says, without actually supplying that literature. The burden of proof is on the person making the claims. What is freely asserted is freely dismissed. How would the user you replied to even go about searching for the citation, given…

> What is freely asserted is freely dismissed. Then kindly leave it at that. It is, after all, the nature of friendly and disagreeable conversation. Crying to me about it certainly isn't productive.

You made an assertion that someone was being unreasonable in their requests for citations. You projected some buzzword made up by a webcomic, and then tried to associate it with something else entirely, as if demanding citations is the province of mouth breathers. You then misinterpreted my reply in the worst possible light, to fit the conspiracy that supports your original points. And now you're playing the victim card yourself because you have no further merits to argue.

If simple enumeration of the fallacies contained your arguments is seen as a personal attack, You don't have a lot of ground to stand on when you accuse other people of being trolls.

Re: Say Hello to Full Employment

#320
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get why it’s so hard to find good recruiters. I’ve had relationships with reputable recruiters for 20 years.

I think for some of us it is just our only recruiter experience are the folks who talk to you and never call back who work for a specific company, and the folks who want to spam your resume or something. It's hard to know who is who.

When a recruiter reaches out to you on LinkedIn, check to see whether the company they work for is local to the area.

I just picked a random city -Boston - and Google’d “Boston software recruiters”. I found two or three just now.

Even with the job boards, recruiters post jobs thier and instead of sending your resume, talk to them. If you have the skills, and interview well, they will be more than happy to work with you. They get a 20% finders fee from the company you are eventually hired through and it doesn’t affect your salary.

If they won’t give you the information for the hiring company when you ask - don’t deal with them. Also, don’t be shady. Don’t go behind the recruiters back, make sure you aren’t being submitted by more than one company and make sure they always ask before they submit your resume.

The general rule of thumb is not to tell them your current salary. I’ve never gone by that rule. I always tell them the minimum salary I want - and no “target compensation” and bonuses don’t count - and don’t waste my time discussing any company that can’t meet my requirements.

I’ve had them negotiate on my behalf after a company was interested for more than the salary the company offered. The more I make the more they make.

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