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China Blocks WhatsApp

nytimes.com

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Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#311

Post by FabHK »

shpx wrote: post #109
mtgx wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VPNs probably. They've started to crack down on those lately, too. Also, a random tweet I saw today apparently with a recording of China's CCTV surveillance system: https://twitter.com/0XDEDBEEF/status/912026226658652160 No wonder China wants to be #1 in "artificial intelligence". Surveillance and censorship are likely the primary motivators for that.

"One of the prominent Chinese VCs, Neil Shen from Sequoia China, was on the Economist's podcast recently talking about AI in China. When the host asked Shen about the Chinese state's use of AI in monitoring the citizens of China, Shen clammed up. It is an amazing bit of audio (starts around minute 8.) https://www.acast.com/theeconomistasks/theeconomistasks-howd... " https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15017622

Given the political environment he faces at home, it was nearly a bit unfair to put him on the spot like that. The silence speaks volumes, though. Most meaningful silence I've heard (?) in a while.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#312

Post by xeonoex »

criddell wrote: post #72
meri_dian wrote: post #15

Edit: This is not a justification or defense of internet censorship. It is an explanation of why the Chinese public may be more willing to accept strict government controls than the West. While most Westerners see actions like this as serious violations of individual rights, the Chinese are used to such exercises of control by their leaders. There is a firm historical basis for similar behavior going back thousands o…

Do you think it's changing? Are young adults in China as accepting of government controls as their great-grandparents were?

Anecdotal, but I have a friend who grew up in China but spent most of his adult life in the US. He's well traveled and his family is wealthy. I thought his time in the US might change his views on the (IMO) oppressive Chinese government, but it has not. He is 100% willing to forgo freedom for ease of life. He prefers the Chinese culture because being a good citizen is almost enforced. I've tried to explain the negatives, but he doesn't seem concerned about anything I brought up.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#313

Post by KGIII »

fspeech wrote: post #305
KGIII wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, and I wouldn't put it past them, but I know of no current legal mechanism for that. Emphasis on legal , of course. It does make me wonder what they'd use for justification - prior to the current administration. The current administration would just use nationalism and protectionism, I'd think. I'm not sure how the previous administration would have framed it in order to make it politically feasible.

The federal government can forbid any of its employees from using the said service out of security concerns, a la Kaspersky. With network effect this can be an insurmountable challenge. Why should anyone try?

For the thought exercise, I suppose. With the already entrenched services, it seems unlikely to change to whole new services. At least not any time soon.

There were services that came before, but they lacked the inertia the current incumbents have. The userbase of Facebook, Google, etc. is huge in the Western world. Even if another company came along and built a great service, I doubt it would see mass adoption due to the massive numbers involved with the current providers.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#314

Post by phyller »

Fluid_Mechanics wrote: post #249
chaostheory wrote: post #40

What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ. The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens a lot more often since the…

I disagree - I think having some control over the self-destructive urges of a population during times of economic trouble is a positive thing. Several democracies with cancerous social media networks are teetering on the brink of right-wing proto-fascist parties as a result of the recent recession and perceived immigration issues. The mob needs to be controlled for progress to be protected.

This would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic. You realize this is exactly what every evil dictator in history thought? They didn't wake up one morning and decide to be evil, they were trying to do what they thought was right. In their minds they were good, they were actually trying to make the world a better place, according to their world view. They had great plans, and the foolish mob didn't know what was best for them. And one thing led to another.

So what if the right-wing people in charge had the same ideas as you? Several democracies with cancerous social media networks have been teetering on the brink of left-wing national socialism, the mob needs to be controlled.

What we dislike about fascists and their ilk is not the right-wing or left-wing part, it is how they deal with those they disagree with. Stalin was responsible for more deaths than Hitler, Mao for more than Stalin, neither of them right wing. If you were able to enforce what you suggest, you would be worse than those you oppose.

But you are right about democracies devolving in certain times of stress. How about this statement instead? "The mob needs to be inspired by the self-sacrificial service of good leaders for progress to be made"

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#315

Post by [deleted] »

rwallace wrote: post #217
majormajor wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially as China avoids the mistake of closing itself off to the rest of the world, but stays integrated in the markets, as well as the academic exchanges. So if the strategy is have-our-cake-and-eat-it-too why does the rest of the world play along? Corporate greed outside the control of governmental entities? Like the parent and unlike the grandparent, I'm not convinced "openness" of the sort that fosters innov…

> So if the strategy is have-our-cake-and-eat-it-too why does the rest of the world play along? As opposed to what? Economic sanctions have a wonderfully consistent track record of making things worse for everyone. China is too powerful for 'destroy the country and slaughter its people in a fit of pique' to work the way it did in Libya and Syria, which is just as well because that also makes things worse for everyone…

[deleted]

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#316

Post by FabHK »

hw wrote: post #60

I'm curious if this is really censorship or just a play to further enhance the position of Chinese messaging apps' monopolies. Question is why wouldn't the US block Chinese sites, apps and services like WeChat, Alibaba, Baidu, etc?

Cross-border chats that previously used WhatsApp will now be forced to switch to WeChat, and thus be subject to Chinese gov't monitoring. Also leading to more international installs of WeChat.

If US blocked those sites, nobody would care, except those with ties to China. However, it would be easy to circumvent with VPNs etc., unless of course the US duplicated the GFW.

At any rate, that's rather antithetical to US values.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#317

Post by FabHK »

mads wrote: post #160

Big news. Which one are safe now (in US and China)? Telegram?? I remember back in the days, when you wrote "fuck" in Skype from China and it would get censored. Which one is a trusted messenger these days?

Signal. Maybe Wire.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#318

Post by plexicle »

bamboozled wrote: post #291
rubenbe wrote: post #13

This is getting really strict. I went to China around 2012: * Facebook was already blocked * Google and wikipedia magically stopped working when you searched for "tiananmen" * Gmail worked fine I returned in early 2017, oh god what a change: * Don't even think about Facebook * Ironically Facebook messenger worked until my session expired * No gmail, google at all (don't remember about Wikipedia) * Whatsapp worked fin…

It seems strict but maybe it's sensible from a security standpoint. Why should a foreign country like China allow foreign owned mass-surveillance systems like Google and Facebook spy on their citizens? I mean even countries in the EU are taking Facebook to court over unauthorised online tracking of citizens [1]. The only difference with China is they have the power to do something about it, which is skip the legislat…

No one is forcing them to use Google or Facebook. I sure as hell wouldn't want the US blocking Baidu or whatever. Let me decide.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#319

Post by the_common_man »

meri_dian wrote: post #15

Edit: This is not a justification or defense of internet censorship. It is an explanation of why the Chinese public may be more willing to accept strict government controls than the West. While most Westerners see actions like this as serious violations of individual rights, the Chinese are used to such exercises of control by their leaders. There is a firm historical basis for similar behavior going back thousands o…

> Edit: This is not a justification or defense of internet censorship. It is an explanation of why the Chinese public may be more willing to accept strict government controls than the West.

What are you talking about? The west has completely accepted surveillance by it's governments. The ideas by Locke, Rousseau, or Hobbes have 0 effect on western society. If you think western society is an 'freer', it's only because it's the perfect illusion created by your echo chamber.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#320

Post by raquo »

dmix wrote: post #43
meri_dian wrote: post #15

Edit: This is not a justification or defense of internet censorship. It is an explanation of why the Chinese public may be more willing to accept strict government controls than the West. While most Westerners see actions like this as serious violations of individual rights, the Chinese are used to such exercises of control by their leaders. There is a firm historical basis for similar behavior going back thousands o…

> It's important for Westerners to realize that the Chinese never had a Locke, or a Rousseau, or a Hobbes. Neither did South America but they were inspired by all of them when they formed their modern republics after the various revolutions, after kicking out the Spanish rulers in the 1800s the military generals had a choice to form democracies and they sought inspiration from Europe, just as America did a century ea…

The last paragraph also happens to perfectly describe how Russia works. All exactly the same.
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