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Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

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Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#311

Post by eli_gottlieb »

bad_user wrote: post #88
jerf wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be operating under the belief that the disintegration of the EU started three weeks ago or something? It's been an ongoing saga for years. I mean, Brexit predates Trump, and Brexit itself is the result of years of pressures. I can see why you'd be so confused by the "strategy" if you think Trump is causing it, but he's reacting to it. And my assessment of the situation is the other way around; there's not…

The Brexit campaign was fueled by lies. The real issue is a trend of anti-intellectualism and xenophobia, which I fear we've seen before, triggered by the great depression and a precursor to WWII. It's as if, whenever a financial crisis happens, people go dumb.

Have we tried not allowing financial crises to grow in the first place?

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#312

Post by dagenleg »

bad_user wrote: post #198
baursak wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it curious that it's only Europeans who are worried about Russia and their expansion threat, and the most loud about it are those who don't even have a common border with Russia. On the other hand, countries with a common border -- China, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, etc., are kind ho hum about the whole thing. I also feel compelled to partially quote Gore Vidal's old article on this: "When Japan surrende…

> I find it curious that it's only Europeans who are worried about Russia and their expansion threat, and the most loud about it are those who don't even have a common border with Russia. On the other hand, countries with a common border -- China, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, etc., are kind ho hum about the whole thing. That's because of what the Soviets did after WWII, and let me remind you of the Warsaw Pact c…

I am guessing you are a Romanian yourself, judging by your use of Romanian spelling of "Bessarabia". I would remind you that Romania actually joined the alliance with Hitler and provided more than a million of troops to the Eastern front. Funny that you forgot to mention it.

Due to historical happenstance Romania received a lot of land after WW1. Then it opportunistically took Bessarabia from Russia, it's former ally, while Russia was in the state of civil war. Less then thirty years afterwards Russia annexes the land back. What is there to be outraged about? Phew, Eastern Europe and its border disputes.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#313

Post by seppin »

rrggrr wrote: post #144
danmaz74 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Trump not a plutocrat?

Because now that he is President the Constitution and Congress are his source of power. There's nothing his money can buy him right now that trumps the power of the office and the Congress.

I'll try again: How is Trump not a plutocrat riding populist anger into power to enrich himself and his friends?

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#314

Post by eli_gottlieb »

DarkKomunalec wrote: post #130
bad_user wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Brexit campaign was fueled by lies. The real issue is a trend of anti-intellectualism and xenophobia, which I fear we've seen before, triggered by the great depression and a precursor to WWII. It's as if, whenever a financial crisis happens, people go dumb.

Xenophobia, or rational self-interest? How is the common worker better-off by allowing immigration? The only advantage I can think of is having the option of abandoning their country to seek better fortunes elsewhere (assuming immigration is a two-way street). What about the great majority who wish to stay in their own countries?

Immigration is more-or-less irrelevant to the common worker either way. Macroeconomic labor conditions affect the common worker more: if labor's share of income is large but immigration is high, people are fine, but if labor's share of income is low with zero immigration, people are still miserable.

How much immigration is there into, say, Belarus? Practically none. How well-off is the common worker in Belarus? Miserable.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#315

Post by seppin »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #6

Why does NATO still exist? It's existence was supposed to be to counter the Soviet threat. Now the threat is gone and NATO is still around. It shows that the Soviet excuse was just a pretext.

> Why does NATO still exist? It's existence was supposed to be to counter the Soviet threat. Now the threat is gone and NATO is still around. It shows that the Soviet excuse was just a pretext.

Ask Eastern Ukraine, or Crimea, or Georgia, or Syria, or Tajikistan, or Moldova.

Or any of the Baltic states now planning on having to fight for their lives.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#316

Post by eli_gottlieb »

DarkKomunalec wrote: post #297
Elrac wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I'm too lazy to dig up those statistics for you. Part of the reason is that I consider your question to be fundamentally misdirected. First, I'd like to point out that medical staff form just the tip of the iceberg in terms of wage-reduction by immigrants. For example, my father in law lives in an old age home staffed almost entirely with low-wage foreigners - a mix of immigrants, migrants, what-have y…

Fleeing from countries such as Turkey, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, and Slovenia? And pretending there are only two options - let them stay forever, or gun them down at the border, is dishonest at best. We ship food half way around the world, there's no reason wealthy countries can't fund refugee camps and in general help and give aid to countries that accept refugees. This would also reduce the number…

>We ship food half way around the world, there's no reason wealthy countries can't fund refugee camps and in general help and give aid to countries that accept refugees.

Except that those countries are, frankly, undemocratic, corrupt, and devoted to suppressing working conditions.

>And, are you saying the stance of governments to their people is "We need more workers - breed faster, or we'll import someone who will"?

Except of course that these same governments don't want their local capitalists to have to pay family-founding wages.

>Britons are now an ethnic minority in London, but only racists would be bothered by the same taking place in their countries, I guess.

I'm an ethnic minority everywhere except a tiny, embattled corner of the planet, about the size of New Jersey. What sympathy ought I have for inheritors of the British Empire being concerned about foreigners?

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#317

Post by AnimalMuppet »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #223
zzleeper wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait wait.. Russia plainly invaded two of its neighbors, and annexes part of them. Is that just "behaving badly" in your book?

First off, I think Russia is a corrupt kleptocracy. But think about it for just one second. Crimea contains Russia's _only_ warm water port. For the whole country. A country that spans two continents. Look back on how America treated 'Panama'. America has dozens of warm water ports on both oceans, and it overthrew countries a thousand miles away to secure shipping convenience. It's inconceivable how long Russia has a…

> Look back on how America treated 'Panama'.

Bad, but not relevant. Our misdeeds do not make Russia's misdeeds any better.

> It's inconceivable how long Russia has allowed itself to go without a warm water port

Allowed? You sound like countries have a divine right to warm-water ports, which Russia graciously waived for an extended period.

And what did Russia get? A warm-water port to which they do not have land access. Well, you know what's next. They're going to decide they have a divine right to land access to that port.

> And in the scale of international lawlessness, the Russian invasion of Crimea is totally justifiable 'bad behavior'.

It's bad (immoral/illegal) behavior. It's also behavior that, yes, large nations (including our own) have "justified" in the past. That doesn't make it right; it only makes it somewhat unsurprising.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#318

Post by dagenleg »

seppin wrote: post #272
bad_user wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it curious that it's only Europeans who are worried about Russia and their expansion threat, and the most loud about it are those who don't even have a common border with Russia. On the other hand, countries with a common border -- China, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, etc., are kind ho hum about the whole thing. That's because of what the Soviets did after WWII, and let me remind you of the Warsaw Pact c…

Unbelievable that the suffering of Baltic states for 50+ years under brutal Soviet rule is simply "forgotten" by OP. The cold war showed a clear contrast between US/Rus goals. The US wanted free and prosperous allied countries, Russia wanted an empire. Just b/c Russia failed in their attempts to become a global power doesn't mean they somehow had more noble intentions. Quite the opposite in fact.

"Free"? Do I really need to remind you about all the dictators that were installed by the US during the Cold War?

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#319

Post by seppin »

tiatia wrote: post #68
tiatia wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"is currently fighting in and occupying a European country." If Russia were fighting Ukraine, the war would be over in 1 week.

Why is this getting downvoted? Use your brains. Ok, I was wrong. Two weeks. Mea culpa https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/03/world/europe/ukraine-cris...

B/c they can't invade fully, they need some pretext. Also even if they wanted to, they don't have the forces to occupy Kiev.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#320

Post by AnimalMuppet »

vkou wrote: post #261
Melk wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The western powers have been doing most of the invading lately. That's what you're replying to. Several former Warsaw Pact countries joined NATO. The West didn't invade them.

If Canada were to allow China to start building military bases and anti-ICBM defense sites on the Canada/US border, there'd be regime change on Parliament Hill within the week. Every empire needs aligned, friendly, or at least, neutral buffer states on their borders - and will violently defend incursions into their buffer zones. Observe the shitshow over Cuba - sixty years of sanctions, terrorism, assassination attem…

Because a neighboring country imported nuclear-capable offensive weapons. It wasn't just the alliance that was the issue.
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