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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#311

Post by stalcottsmith »

jeroen94704 wrote: post #41

This article seems to assume you're single and not in a hurry to start a family. I'd be interested to read an article "Does it make sense for a programmer with a wife and kids to move to the bay area". I secretly suspect the answer will be "no", since no matter how you slice it, a 4-bedroom house in the Bay Area won't be reachable until you are well on your way to, say, 40 or so.

We (family of four, parents 40ish years old) are fortunate enough to be somewhat location independent with the stipulation that we have to be in US/Pacific timezone to keep sane hours. We looked at the Bay Area one more time this year before choosing Reno. Much lower taxes, much better housing choices at our affordability level, general convenience and outdoor recreation in and around Tahoe were the attraction. This area has long been a landing spot for retirees from the BA but it's now booming with younger people and families. It's improving quickly. For someone who owns a business and has some location independence, it's a great choice. Also commercial rents are much more startup-friendly if you need offices and such. A meeting in SF is only a 4 hour drive away. Daily flights to SF and San Jose if you're in a hurry.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#312

Post by Mz »

yarou wrote: post #296
Mz wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be your specific location. It also might be a combination of "selection bias" -- people tend to be friends with people who are like them in some way -- and psychological filtering where you just don't see anything else for some reason. I remember reading a piece about alcoholism where it was describing an alcoholic who concluded that everyone drinks a great deal and just doesn't admit it because that was wha…

I think it comes down to culture. The culture of the South Bay is relatively non-existent outside of small pockets like Palo Alto, Los Gatos, Mountain view, and maybe Santana Row. It's geared toward raising kids and family life in general.

I am having enormous difficulty parsing that comment. I have tried to just let it go, but I am failing at that, and I am seriously struggling to reply in a way that does not sound like snark.

Could you clarify what you mean? Because it sounds like either you are saying "Culture only exists in tiny parts of certain places, no place else in the South Bay even has a culture" (which is utterly nonsensical) or maybe you are saying "People who have kids and put family life first are not part of any culture." (again, a big fat nope).

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#313

Post by jsat »

stephencanon wrote: post #62
timothycrosley wrote: post #29

The smartest thing would be to start in Bay Area, and then transfer to Seattle at the same pay rate.

If you are going to transfer somewhere at the same pay rate, transfer somewhere cheaper and nicer than Seattle. Lots of options (I'm partial to northern New England, personally, as I like having proper winter).

Chiming in to respectfully disagree that New England winters are better than Seattle's. Seattle has a more temperate winter with fresh powder 90 minutes to the east, if you're into that sort of thing. Snow should be on a mountain with ski lifts, not in your driveway :)

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#314

Post by sporkenfang »

padobson wrote: post #193
josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

It really depends on what you want to do. If programming is programming and programming is just a job, then you can do that anywhere there are programming jobs, and with so many companies offering remote work, that could be anywhere. But if programming is what you intend to bring as a founder - if it's simply a means to get the burning ideas out of your head and into a product, then there's a much smaller number of p…

What if I'm working on a side project, don't want VC funding (or any sort of loans), and just want to build organically? I can find people who can program and can program well in almost any place on the planet. There are a shitload of Russians and Chinese cleaning up at things in the software engineering domain. There are a shitload of people writing all kinds of good and bad code everywhere. Even if I wanted to found a startup in Nowhere, Saskatchewan I could, particularly since there are plenty of folks who will work remotely and maybe a few locals who are good as well.

San Francisco is a place. Engineering talent is available everywhere, though perhaps most places it isn't so much fish jumping onto the line as in the Bay Area.

What about all the nerds who are Polish, Portuguese, and Peruvian and choose to remain local because their spouses, children, and other interests are? They can still code, some of them are definitely brilliant, and they can either work locally or (more likely) remotely.

Starting a "startup" with venture capital might be next to impossible in Peru, for all I know, but a hell of a lot of folks don't want to exit, don't want to dilute their ownership of their product, and frankly like the environs elsewhere.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#315

Post by geldan »

linkregister wrote: post #30
rizzom5000 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget taxes. Your taxes are 25% higher in San Francisco compared to Seattle.

Which taxes? Marginal California income tax + MediCal is about 13% at the $120k bracket.

Seattle has no income tax, and sales tax doesn't apply to most food from the grocery store, so taxes in Seattle really depend on how you choose to spend your money.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#316

Post by hisham_hm »

Mz wrote: post #312
yarou wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it comes down to culture. The culture of the South Bay is relatively non-existent outside of small pockets like Palo Alto, Los Gatos, Mountain view, and maybe Santana Row. It's geared toward raising kids and family life in general.

I am having enormous difficulty parsing that comment. I have tried to just let it go, but I am failing at that, and I am seriously struggling to reply in a way that does not sound like snark. Could you clarify what you mean? Because it sounds like either you are saying "Culture only exists in tiny parts of certain places, no place else in the South Bay even has a culture" (which is utterly nonsensical) or maybe you a…

I'm guessing what was meant by culture was "cultural life", as in "things to do outside" (think the Arts & Culture section of the newspaper).

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#317

Post by paganel »

bcheung wrote: post #125
bradlys wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I live here. I have an average salary for my experience. I can barely save $20k/yr. My rent+util is about $2000/month. I live in a very /cheap/ 1-bedroom with creaky carpet floors, no insulation, and near train tracks that's far outside SF. (Belmont) Altogether I spend close to $4000/month if I don't do anything special. /Everything/ is more expensive in this region. Food is expensive for no apparent reason ot…

It's cheaper to live in a larger place with roommates. You pay a premium for single bedroom and living by yourself. I lived in a warehouse with 5 other people for a while to save money.

From a certain point in life living at your own place (no matter if rented or not) with no room-mates is non-negotiable, given the financial means to do so. I'd rather live in a studio apartment at the edge of the city (been there, done that) rather than sharing a villa in a beautiful neighborhood with 5 other strangers. If it matters I'm in my mid-30s now, but started feeling that way immediately after I broke up with my wife 5 years ago.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#318

Post by kLeeIsDead »

kobeya wrote: post #281
kLeeIsDead wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in San Jose from birth to 19 years old (worked one year at a startup) and I can see where you're coming from, but you must be blind if you have no idea what I'm talking about. The friendships I cultivated while growing up there are sacred, but those friendships would have been impossible if I didn't meet them while growing up. If I moved to SJ from somewhere else at 19+ I know I would be miserable, because…

I don't know what to say. Get out more, I guess? Change your group of friends? There's a million people that live here and I'm always meeting new people and striking up conversations. Some stick, some don't. I actually don't hang out with anyone from my childhood anymore, as I've made so many new friends over the years. I'm glad things worked out for you in any case.

> Get out more, I guess?

I don't think I'm getting my point across correctly. Sure. There are niches in the bay area that are great, and I'm sure I'd meet many interesting people there, if I decided to stay.

However, there's a certain point where enough is enough. It's not like this problem I'm describing is just the effect of a one-off bubble that will go away soon. It is going to get worse and worse; like it has always been. Housing prices / COL are going to go up and people are going to be constantly forced out of their homes and have to relocate and compromise. If you fuck up in your career or make one bad move with your finances, you are done. Bye bye bay area. If it doesn't happen to you it will definitely happen to your friends. It's just a horrible existence and I am honestly baffled you don't see this despite living there your whole life. The only way I could conceive of you not seeing this is if you and your friends have something like $2M saved up and don't need to worry about finances.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#319

Post by mtrpcic »

_xhok wrote: post #127
dustinmoris wrote: post #100

So a recruiting agency who makes money from placing applicants in the Bay area, a place with a shortage of developers, writes an article to convince more developers to move to the Bay area ? Yeah, totally trust their data and the data they selected for this article!

So, do you actually see something wrong with/missing from their data?

"You don't know what you don't know". We have no idea how they selected, curated, pruned, or otherwise "cleaned" their data set to meet their needs. What we can say, definitively, is they DO have a bias to encourage more developers to move to the Bay Area.

"Do not put your faith in what statistics say until you have carefully considered what they do not say." - William W. Watt

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#320

Post by josh_carterPDX »

smsm42 wrote: post #284
josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

I live in the BA and work in tech, and I'm not super-stressed. Neither my peers seem to be. It doesn't mean we don't work - but not more stressfully than I'd expect to work anywhere else. Maybe I'm just lucky. The downside is everything is so expensive. Housing, of course. But also everything else too, services, other things. If you can live frugally, it may be to your benefit - you get higher income and keep low spe…

Totally. The nice thing about being in Portland is that the Bay Area is only an hour and a half flight. We still have family down there so we spend some time there, but we have kids. So one big reason we left the Bay Area was just to find better quality education and we definitely do not regret the move after finding amazing schools here.

But to your point, there are some great events and conferences which is probably the biggest thing missing from Portland. There are a few good events, but nothing at the scale of what happens in SF.

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