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Donald Trump Is Elected President

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Re: Donald Trump Is Elected President

#311
post #109

I have a lot of thoughts, but here's one: Hillary focused her entire campaign on why people should stop Trump, at the expense of talking about why she should be president. In general, making the case against someone else rather than the affirmative case for yourself doesn't work. It's reaction versus action. It's undoubtably true now that there was a very real populist anger towards the existing political order, and…

> at the expense of talking about why she should be president. Hillary couldn't make that argument because it would've drawn more attention to her most damning flaw: The fact that she's a textbook demagogue who was on the wrong side of every progressive issue until she found it politically expedient to "evolve". That's why so many people were so passionate about Sanders. You could go back to C-SPAN videos from 1992 a…

Having the same opinion for 24 years is not a virtue.

In the (probably apocryphal) words of Keynes:

> When someone persuades me that I am wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?

It's not a sign of vice either; I'm sure he's been believing that the Earth is round for 24+ years, and that's fine. What matters is accuracy, and updating in the face of new evidence, not consistency. Consistency in the face of new evidence is called faith.

Re: Donald Trump Is Elected President

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, Republicans did this. Don't blame this on Hillary (hint: she won the popular vote). Don't blame this on Democrats. Accept responsibility. As for likable, Hillary has been the most admired woman in America, 14 years straight. Trump ran the most negative fact free campaign ever to overcome her likability.

Disagree here completely, DNC rigged the primary for HRC and gave away the independent vote with it. This was a very forseeable albeit depressing outcome.

Yes, the DNC leaned on the scales which really meant fundraising. If you look at Bernie's fundraising, it was about individual small donations. He did well there, well enough. The DNC had control of PAC money and lists.

This was a contributing factor but Democrats voted. If Democratic voters are as gullible as you're making us out to be then we deserved to lose. Democrats are a center left party. Bernie is progressive which is a little further left. Democrats voted.

Re: Donald Trump Is Elected President

#313
In an election largely between two epically bad candidates, the outcome fell in the direction I'd felt would be less bad, but in a way that's worse than I'd expected. I had strongly criticized both Clinton and Trump, but felt that in the balance, Clinton was a more dangerous candidate. Seeing how the chips fell, though, I'm even less confident that this was the preferable outcome. There are two key factors leading me to this conclusion.

First relates to the big-picture politics. For all the disagreement about policy, Clinton really was the centrist candidate, and certainly within the Democratic Party, the strong voice of moderation (at least in domestic policy). Something I failed to consider was that this defeat weakens the voice of moderation, thus making the extremist voices from Sanders and Warren louder. Clinton may be a bad person, but Sanders and Warren represent some really bad ideas, and if this gives those ideas fertile ground to grow in, that's a real problem.

And there's a real possibility of that. The demographics representing Trump's win shows that his grasp on the rust belt manufacturing interests was much greater than previously thought. The thing is, Trump's not a Conservative and never has been. He represents populist ideas that overlap significant with the Sanders and Warren ideas. Politically they're on opposite sides, but ideologically they're quite the same. The election results give that ideology more weight, and Trump can see them realized.

The second relates to Trump's relationship with the rest of his party. Looking back to the summer and the party conventions, there was a clear rift in the GOP, with powerful members barely tolerating Trump, if at all. That was a good thing: it meant that should Trump win, his party would likely keep him in check. But unfortunately (and I do think it's unfortunate) it seems like that rift is healing. And with the GOP retaining control of both houses of Congress, it's dangerous to have so much control in the hands of one party, with Trump at the helm.

So where do we go now? Well, maybe there's a silver lining here. Maybe the prospect of Trump power with both political branches in GOP hands will inspire the Democrats. Maybe they'll re-discover the benefits of limited government, and in particular the boundaries of Presidential power.

Unfortunately I have little hope of that: Obama certainly said all the right things when he was in the Senate and GWB was in the White House, but when he got power himself, all of that restraint went out the window. So let me offer to my Liberal friends this olive branch: I'll be there fighting with you against overreaches from Trump and the GOP, but I hope you'll stay by my side in four years when the tide is likely to turn. And I hope that my Conservative friends who criticized President Obama for overreaches will remain consistent.

The trend toward populism is a thornier problem, and I don't have a satisfactory answer. My best hope is that people will come to their senses. It's intuitive and satisfying to believe things like "the Mexicans are taking all our jobs" or "our trade deficit shows we're losing out to the rest of the world" or "higher minimum wages are necessary to protect those on the lowest rung". Recently the Democrats have tried to market themselves as the party of intelligence and science. When trying to make that case - whether you’re a Democrat or a Republican - please first look to the scientific consensus on those topics.

Re: Donald Trump Is Elected President

#314
post #282
post #70

As someone who's actively vocalized his support for Trump in the past, both here[1] and in my meat space life, I'm ecstatic with the results of this election. Not just the POTUS, but the trifecta of the house and senate as well. That's as loud of a mandate as can be expected from a strongly divided country. On top of all that, with the SCOTUS picks that are expected in the next few years, this election is going to be…

How can you expect the millions of marginalized people to just "sit back and move in the direction that has been chosen" when that direction is one that believes they should not exist?

The same way as people do every 4 years when one side doesn't get their way. This is the system we've collectively chosen. This is how it works.

The alternative is even more extreme.

Re: Donald Trump Is Elected President

#315
post #263

I'd argue you are clueless. Trump has been sued several times for the discrimination against black people, he fired black people from his casinos and moved them to the back, he INSISTS TO THIS DAY that the Central Park Five are guilty despite DNA evidence, he jokes and also brags about literally molesting women. People like you disgust me. Stop acting like his words and actions don't matter.

> People like you disgust me. You can't comment like this on HN, regardless of how right you are and how strongly you feel. Personal attacks in particular are not ok. Comments need to get more civil as the topic grows more contentious, or else our hope of substantive discussion goes up in flames. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12911145 and marked it off-topic.

He did not attack specific people or clearly identifiable subgroups or minorities. He attacked a broad category of people for holding certain views. I think that is well within what is acceptable in online debate.

If you are going to attack this argument, then you might as well say it is unacceptable to call people who favor cutting off hands of thieves for barbaric. Sure you characterize people with a mean word "barbaric", but it you are not singling out particular people only those holding such views.

Re: Donald Trump Is Elected President

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education. It's what Obama was emphasizing his entire presidency. Those jobs are never coming back, and even more are going to be automated. The education gap between rich and poor (and white and minority) is getting larger because of hoodlum-fearing mothers who support segregated neighborhoods and schools. Plus the poor-parent schools stay poor and the rich-parent schools stay rich. All of these factors together (wh…

Education helps the young, at least as our systems are built. The people vocalizing their opinion by voting for Trump are beyond the age where education can be the key (old dogs and new tricks, etc.). There isn't a will to go to an educational program. There is a will to work and support yourself, but no work for them to do... /because we can't get our shit together and fund infrastructure programs //Not bitter.

Yeah. I expected the populist insurgency to come in the form of a progressive agenda, but this is the way it went instead.

The problem is, people who used to make a livelihood don't want a minimum wage job, no matter how high the minimum wage. They're adults used to providing for themselves and possibly a family, for god's sake! They don't want some elementary retraining program to make them barely capable of doing a modern job. They want to feel productive and useful on their own, like most of us.

Re: Donald Trump Is Elected President

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at the expense of talking about why she should be president. Hillary couldn't make that argument because it would've drawn more attention to her most damning flaw: The fact that she's a textbook demagogue who was on the wrong side of every progressive issue until she found it politically expedient to "evolve". That's why so many people were so passionate about Sanders. You could go back to C-SPAN videos from 1992 a…

> That's why so many people were so passionate about Sanders. You could go back to CSPAN videos from 1992 and hear him saying the exact same things he said throughout the whole primary season. This was this the exact same case with Ron Paul 4 years ago but it seemed to hardly matter

Yes, and the same thing happened to Ron Paul. The RNC colluded to ensure he didn't get the nomination. They actually changed rules during the convention to make sure that couldn't happen.

I'm sure if we had wikileaks of the RNC during that time, it would have revealed much of the same type of insider corruption.

Re: Donald Trump Is Elected President

#318
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like 1930s Germany all over again, except that Muslims are the new Jews. You'd think we would have learned from last time a racist, populist demagogue gained control of a nation. (Yes, I'm aware that "Godwin's Law invoked". In this case, it's actually relevant.)

Except, you know, we don't have an Article 48, any proposed Enabling Act would be filibustered to hell, and our society is nowhere near as authoritarian as it used to be, much less 1930s Germany.

You're much more closely watched though. If things go bad now the scope for harm is much greater.

Re: Donald Trump Is Elected President

#319

Now that the voices of the disenfranchised blue collar workers have been heard, what actually can be done to help them? I'm less worried about the accusations of racism, etc. because it appears to me a majority are voting because their livelihoods have been lost and, despite economics saying globalization will bring new jobs, they aren't showing up in the critical areas where they are needed. So, what policies can be…

Jobs that can't be exported are safe from movement. Hairdressing and cleaning for instance. That doesn't mean the person doing it can't be an immigrant, though, so perhaps by restricting immigration you reduce competition for it. Jobs that compete with similar jobs in other countries can potentially benefit from trade barriers. Make foreign cars expensive and there will be substitution with local cars. Long term it's…

> Make foreign cars expensive and there will be substitution with local cars.

Many "foreign" cars are built in the US. Some even more so than the American brands. "The Toyota Camry is, apparently, the most American vehicle on sale in the U.S." http://fortune.com/2015/06/29/cars-made-in-america/

Re: Donald Trump Is Elected President

#320

Now that the voices of the disenfranchised blue collar workers have been heard, what actually can be done to help them? I'm less worried about the accusations of racism, etc. because it appears to me a majority are voting because their livelihoods have been lost and, despite economics saying globalization will bring new jobs, they aren't showing up in the critical areas where they are needed. So, what policies can be…

You can do what the democrats have talked about, which we have successfully done in Nordic countries which is to spend a lot of money on re-educating the workforce and making sure those at the bottom get decent skills. I grew up in a rustbelt like industrial town in Norway. We has shipyards, glass factory, paper mill, textile industry, lock systems etc. Almost all of it got closed down and moved overseas as I grew up…

You can't compare Norway, a high educated small country full of petromoney with the rest of the world. The recipe can't be reproduced.
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