A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage • Hacker News Board

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#311

Post by Karunamon » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:06 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #270

Karunamon wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have no cash, and you've used up the meager funds TANF gives you, there are other programs still available to cover the necessities of life.. SNAP comes to mind, as do overnight shelters. It's not much of a life, but at least you're not out in the cold. A safety net for the safety net if you will. Okay, now that stuff goes away, and you just get the one (significantly increased, but still, just the one) payout…

But this is assuming that Basic Income is a solution for the poor. It's not. It's a solution for all of us as it's based on the premise there there will be less work in the future not more. So We are all going to be poorer so to speak UBI tries to make sure we somehow deal with that.

But this is assuming that Basic Income is a solution for the poor. It's not.

So We are all going to be poorer so to speak UBI tries to make sure we somehow deal with that.

These are contradictory statements.

Any any case, even if true, it just makes my question that much more urgent. You cannot suggest a system that dismantles the existing welfare system without answering the question of what replaces it and if the cracks people will necessarily fall through become bigger or smaller.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#312

Post by pwthornton » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:08 PM UTC

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #266

> Besides, Sweden has one of the rich world's biggest gaps between native and immigrant employment rates. Youth joblessness is 70 percent higher among the foreign-born than among Swedes. Lowering the minimum wage could draw more of the new, mainly Middle Eastern population, into the workforce and reduce social and ethnic tension. A minimum wage is simply not moral. It prevents me and you from entering into an employm…

A don't know if you're American or not, but at least in the U.S., we have lots of regulations on what kinds of contracts people can enter into. Contract law is a major part of our legal system (and the legal system it was derived from). You're arguing that any regulations on contracts are not moral. This has far wider reaching implications than you realize.

There are all kinds of things that the government -- and voters by extension -- have deemed it illegal to enter into contractually. You cannot enter into an agreement to be murdered. You cannot enter into an agreement that amounts to slavery. You cannot enter into a work agreement that violates safety law.

We could go on and on about this, but if you're arguing against contract law, you are many hundred years too late. Contracts have always been subject to laws and regulations in place.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#313

Post by tankenmate » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:08 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #19

paulpauper wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proponents of the UBI make the generous assumption that recipients will be as careful with money as they (the proponents) are . Choosing between food & housing credits vs. cash, the former has less room for abuse. Its like "I would never use my UBI on alcohol"...well you're not "most people"

Given the frankly despair-inducing statistics of what happens to poor people when they acquire a sudden cash windfall (and if you're flat broke and living on the streets, a few hundred every couple weeks is HUGE), I intend to agree. Most UBI implementations I've seen require gutting existing welfare systems - okay, fine, but what happens to the person who inevitably squanders their money?

UBI is supposed to fix the issue of moderate or worse levels of poverty. It's not going to fix mental health issues, addiction issues, and/or family breakdown. However over time it will sort out issues of grinding poverty, which then means that fixes for other social ills will have a better chance of succeeding.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#314

Post by mordocai » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:09 PM UTC

jandrese wrote: post #51

mordocai wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think your points are necessarily wrong, but I have a couple comments. These are from the standpoint of the USA, I don't know much about other countries. 1. Basic income + universal healthcare theoretically would be able to replace all other welfare programs, so there shouldn't be people "wasting" their basic income while drawing from existing programs. Also, I consider some level of frivolities as a basic ne…

As I understand it, that gap is a myth. You don't lose benefits as soon as you cross some imaginary threshold, they are phased out as your income increases. So you don't have as much incentive to make more money, but you never lose money in the process.

Two problems there:

1. If it is a myth than poor people need to be educated on it because it is pervasive. Similar to the myth poor people generally have that if you get a ticket it is better to not show up than to show up and tell them you can't pay.

2. I believe it is not a myth but I don't have any proof available. While benefits are phased out as your income increases, I think the phasing out happens quicker than the increase. The chart the other commenter posted looks good but who knows.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#315

Post by Mikeb85 » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:11 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #274

Mikeb85 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because history shows that more government intervention, especially in the domain of education, health and labour, creates better societies. Two words: New Deal. Most of the US' prosperity since has been as a result of this. Then in the 1980's it was rolled back and guess what? Things are going to shit again. Maybe not in NY and California, but large swaths of the US are mired in poverty, poor employment prospec…

Only 6 European countries have a higher GDP than the US's poorest state, and none are close to the US GDP. And the US GDP has grown significantly faster than Europe's since the 1980's. I don't consider my state that rich, but we're 4 places above Germany. https://www.aei.org/publication/us-gdp-per-capita-by-state-v...

GDP divided by # of people doesn't accurately reflect quality of life... Especially when a good portion of GDP is derived from resources, and not necessarily spread to the population.

There's plenty of indexes that offer better insight.

http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.js...

https://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/04/these-countries-h...

Even indexes that do rate the US highly, generally weight income highly. In life expectancy, health, education, and metrics which don't take into account income, the US doesn't do great.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#316

Post by jrs235 » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:11 PM UTC

bluecalm wrote: post #291

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #266

> Besides, Sweden has one of the rich world's biggest gaps between native and immigrant employment rates. Youth joblessness is 70 percent higher among the foreign-born than among Swedes. Lowering the minimum wage could draw more of the new, mainly Middle Eastern population, into the workforce and reduce social and ethnic tension. A minimum wage is simply not moral. It prevents me and you from entering into an employm…

>>A minimum wage is simply not moral. It prevents me and you from entering into an employment agreement with which we may both benefit. Instead, the government is telling me how I have to interact with you. This argument doesn't make any sense. It is often the case that preventing people from entering a contract thy both benefit from is beneficial for society. It's a standard social dilemma example of which is traged…

I lean libertarian. I don't think the argument is as much libertarian as it is Austrian Economics. What gets me going is that most GOP/Republican/conservative folks that clamor against the minimum wage are Keynesians. And if they are then they condradict themselves when they tout the importance of a strong economy and GDP yet argue against a minimum wage. If you're Keynesian you believe demand drives the economy and GDP. Well if the majority/working class doesn't have disposable income then they can't buy all the trinkets and toys that companies are producing thus grinding things to a halt. There's only so much demand for yachts. Austrians can, in a less contradictory way, argue against a minimum wage. But everyone can't continue to ignore parts of reality. Yes, there are social implications and to dismiss them is no different than dismissing emotions in arguments and marketing, or politics in offices. They exist and must be included and dealt with when trying to make "rational" and prudent choices.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#317

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:11 PM UTC

bluecalm wrote: post #291

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #266

> Besides, Sweden has one of the rich world's biggest gaps between native and immigrant employment rates. Youth joblessness is 70 percent higher among the foreign-born than among Swedes. Lowering the minimum wage could draw more of the new, mainly Middle Eastern population, into the workforce and reduce social and ethnic tension. A minimum wage is simply not moral. It prevents me and you from entering into an employm…

>>A minimum wage is simply not moral. It prevents me and you from entering into an employment agreement with which we may both benefit. Instead, the government is telling me how I have to interact with you. This argument doesn't make any sense. It is often the case that preventing people from entering a contract thy both benefit from is beneficial for society. It's a standard social dilemma example of which is traged…

[deleted]

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#318

Post by randyrand » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:12 PM UTC

kr7 wrote: post #309

randyrand wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basic Income is flatly applied Thats the difference. Of course it depends on the model used, but generally NIC is applied based on how much you work. Generally a non-working person makes $0 , and a fully employed person makes the BI amount. To get the BI you need to work for it. That's the difference. To take this argument any further we would need to compare specific models. But NIC and BI are not the same and hav…

> Generally a non-working person makes $0 Not according to Milton Friedman. https://youtu.be/xtpgkX588nM?t=191

Good source.

That is of course one valid way to implement it and is essentially BI in calculation.

Still even under miltons NIC, an important difference between NIC and BI is intended purpose. BI proponents want enough to live on with little hardship, NIC implies nothing in that regard and most NIC proponents I imagine would be opposed to that.

I would not be a proponent of BI for that important 'scalar' reason.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#319

Post by kough » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:12 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #256

kough wrote: post #29

> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the m…

>No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available Tying this in to our own economy, this is what Bernie and the Unions miss (or perhaps they don't). A min wage increase of 50% will entice low skills Americans who were on Snap to enter the workforce, driving out foreign low skills workers. And I agree with the increase. Too many of our workers possess too few marketable sk…

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. If your "low skills Americans" were more attractive to employers than low skills workers, they would replace those workers regardless of the wage. Increasing the minimum wage will incentivize employers to hire more effectively (because the cost of a worker goes up), which means that only those workers who are productive enough to be worth being paid the new, higher, minimum wage will be hired. Your "low skills" Americans will still be competing within the same pool of labor that they were before the wage was increased, but now employers will be hiring fewer new employees.

So I guess you're arguing that your "low skills Americans who were on Snap" are a) higher skilled than foreign low skills workers, b) unable to find work that pays what they feel they are worth, which is at least 1.5 x $MIN_WAGE? I also don't follow this; if they can't get hired at 1.5 x $MIN_WAGE now, what will make them hireable at that wage in the future?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#320

Post by firethief » Mon, Apr 04, 2016, 9:12 PM UTC

gorpomon wrote: post #298

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #266

> Besides, Sweden has one of the rich world's biggest gaps between native and immigrant employment rates. Youth joblessness is 70 percent higher among the foreign-born than among Swedes. Lowering the minimum wage could draw more of the new, mainly Middle Eastern population, into the workforce and reduce social and ethnic tension. A minimum wage is simply not moral. It prevents me and you from entering into an employm…

A minimum wage is moral. It ensure that you and I do not enter into an employment agreement where one side excessively benefits. The government as third party is ensuring we have minimum amount of fairness in our interaction. The right-wing philosophy of wage bargaining is ironically hurting the workers of their countries. The reality is that first-world nations have predatory labor practices because citizens are sys…

> [A minimum wage] ensure[s] that you and I do not enter into an employment agreement where one side excessively benefits.

I don't see how that is a goal of minimum wage. People can be underpaid at any pay level, and a lot of jobs just aren't worth very much to the employer. A sweatshop paying pennies an hour for extremely unskilled labor could be a fair wage for that work.

Minimum wage serves important functions, but I don't see how they include preserving work value : pay level equity. Free counseling to help inform people of an appropriate wage for their skill level and find an employer who would pay that seems like more of a way to meet that goal.