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Let Snowden Come Home

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Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#301

Post by themeek »

3327 wrote: post #247
austinhutch wrote: post #6

If he were to come back to the USA and then subsequently be detained, I would join the hopefully overwhelming protests in favor of his release. I am hoping if such a time comes, that there will be a historic level of demonstration advocating for his freedom.

I would not. I am American and despite the fact that what I think he did was right, the manner he did it was wrong. Domestic Spying is NOT OK. International Spying IS OK. He released dozens of files regarding international spying. Setting US efforts back dozens of years, endangering lives of US assets. Sorry to say but that is treason. Treason has a price.

Journalists, however, released these documents. Snowden brought a trove of documents because there was no single document that acted as a smoking gun.

If you are upset with the leak of international material you must be upset with Greenwald.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#302

Post by themeek »

shit_parade2 wrote: post #108
eli wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the least, I think Clapper should be investigated for perjury over lying to Congress. But the fact that other criminal acts are going unpunished doesn't really have any bearing on Snowden's case. The crime Snowden is charged with is the same regardless of who else is charged.

It does in fact make a difference when the law prosecutes some but not others. That is how kings and dictators rule, by enforcing 'the law' selectively and in secret.

I'll take this one further and add that selective timing of votes, polls, and application of law are all ways to 'rule by law' but game the system so that the rules have favoritism.

Take the recent Visa application process in the US. Let's pretend - and I'm not so sure we would be pretending - that the Visa process isn't 'random' but is prioritized for political purposes. This is one way that the appearance of fairness can be ridden for the pursuit of interests.

Even prioritizing police cases (parking tickets) to 'subjects of interest' or prior offenders is a skew of justice if these filters are correlated to any significant degree with political outcome or race/creed.

The US will poll citizens in other areas of the world until it is ascertained that the population would vote a certain way - at which point they will call for a vote to be held. This gives the outcome of a vote a sense of legitimacy to those just paying attention to the outcome of the vote - but those who can watch the process of repeated polling alongside influence operations understand just how fine an instrument this can be for deciding political outcomes.

This isn't to say any of this is 'wrong'. There's an undercurrent in the language - that's unfortunate. It's first enough to realize that these things are done and they are done sometimes explicitly with a purpose and other times by accident. Being aware is the first step to deliberation.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#303

Post by themeek »

tzs wrote: post #130

There was an interesting comment on Reddit pointing out some things often overlooked in these discussions [1]. People seem to forget that he leaked information on both illegal and legal foreign spying (which is what the NSA is supposed to be doing). The former is arguably whistleblowing, but the latter is not. Even Greenwald and Binney admit this. See the reddit comment for details and links to sources. Particularly…

The media focused almost exclusively on the domestic case and the PRISM program, leaving both the legal and the illegal surveillance programs focused externally to "new media", bloggers and forum commentators. So it's not really hard to understand that most people overlook the full nature of the Snowden documents.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#304

Post by cpt1138 »

After Ross William Ulbricht was given two life sentences for running Silk Road, someone posted the Federal Guidelines for Life Sentences.

link: http://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-pub....

One thing that struck me is that after reading this, it seemed like a mathematical tally that was entirely reasonable that he be given a life sentence given the point system.

Given that the first instances in the guidelines where life sentences are handed out are treason and espionage (drug trafficking is second), isn't there a significant concern that if Snowden came back, already admitting what he did, he'd just rot in prison with a pre-tallied up score?

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#305

Post by mirimir »

cryptophreak wrote: post #296
mirimir wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who are curious about what China is telling the Chinese about America etc, some VPN services have Chinese exits. One can also lease Chinese VPS. And usable translation is possible with https://translate.google.com/ plus the Perapera Chinese popup dictionary plug-in for Firefox.

For someone with a passing interest but no desire to do the research, what have you found?

Mostly I found that it's feasible, both technically and linguistically. And generally, I found that US and other Western media seem to honestly report public matters in China.

But there is potential for bias. VPN exits and VPS are arguably hosted in facilities that serve foreigners. So perhaps their access to domestic Chinese sites is censored.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#306

Post by darklajid »

rthomas6 wrote: post #300
darklajid wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So he did something wrong (exposing 'legal' things) and did the world a favor. The US has a brandished reputation. Snowden made it worse and could actually prove his cases. As a German, Snowden is awesome. I wouldn't give a rat's ass about whether you consider it legal to spy on this country. You (the state) suck. We learned this once more, got proof, understand that the US of A is not friendly and cannot be consider…

You know that German intelligence cooperates with the NSA to this day, right?

What's your point? I didn't write anything about my feelings towards Germany and frankly, patriotism is a crazy/meaningless concept in my world. We can discuss Germany all day and night and I wouldn't run out of things I hate or dislike about it¹, I guess. And at no point would I feel the need to 'defend' the random place I accidentally grew up in.

I can express how disgusted I am about exhibit A and have still enough of that feeling left for B, C and DE.

①: Just like with JS there are The Good Parts as well, of course.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#307

Post by Friedduck »

It took me a long time to come around to the perspective that we should him as a hero and patriot rather than a traitor, but that's where I've ended up.

We don't view the reporters who uncovered Watergate this way--why him?

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#308

Post by TheCoelacanth »

rthomas6 wrote: post #300
darklajid wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So he did something wrong (exposing 'legal' things) and did the world a favor. The US has a brandished reputation. Snowden made it worse and could actually prove his cases. As a German, Snowden is awesome. I wouldn't give a rat's ass about whether you consider it legal to spy on this country. You (the state) suck. We learned this once more, got proof, understand that the US of A is not friendly and cannot be consider…

You know that German intelligence cooperates with the NSA to this day, right?

Are you prohibited from disliking things because your own government is involved?

As an American, I sure hope not.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#309

Post by CalRobert »

dllthomas wrote: post #270
CalRobert wrote: post #117

Why should he want to come to the US? It has little if anything to offer him. Better to make a home in Germany or Iceland which are all more likely to respect individual privacy than the US, and are lovely places in their own right.

It would be nice if he could see his family again, and moving one person is much cheaper than moving many.

Fair point. Home is a complex idea.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#310

Post by nickbauman »

themeek wrote: post #222
eli wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Supreme Court case you refer to was called "New York Times vs US Government" and was a major victory against prior restraint of the press, but it didn't protect Ellsberg. But I feel we've lost the point. Snowden can't argue that his actions were legal or warranted by the Constitution while he's a fugitive.

This characterization of the Ellsberg case misses its entire context. I'm not sure if you did that purposefully, but perhaps you think there are other reasons why he was acquitted. I do agree we are off point. Snowden can't argue that his actions were legal or warranted by the Constitution while he's a fugitive. He also can't if he isn't given a fair trial: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9656310 But Eli, we agr…

This describes the crucible of the Snowden situation perfectly. Very well put. I am also in camp A.
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