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Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

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Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#301

Post by watwut »

throw94949499 wrote: post #196
kentm wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do not. This is nonsense.

Just checked with ai about Berkley (I like this uni from telly): EECS B.S.: You must complete six humanities/social-science courses. Two are Reading and Composition courses, and four come from approved areas such as history, philosophy, arts, international studies, or social sciences. At least two must be upper-division. https://engineering.berkeley.edu/students/undergraduate-guid... All Berkeley undergraduates must…

The woke horrors of having take history and composition. Or art and reading. Or, OMG sociology!

Oh no! A class about culture or race or gender! Famously race dont matter, except when choosing military leaders.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#302

Post by LPisGood »

nekusar wrote: post #294
LPisGood wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the hard left/hard right flips. Schools of law, economics, engineering - are usually hard right. This is just objectively not true at all, accept in cases so specific that mentioning it as a general rule is misleading

"Ur not true" is not objective in any way. Counterpoint, I'm right. Look at figure 3. https://www.independent.org/tir/2022-23-winter/the-hyperpoli...

It’s certainly the case that some departments are more to the right than the most progressive ones, but this is a far cry from what was described above - “hard right.”

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#303

Post by quacked »

bitmasher9 wrote: post #284
WillAdams wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that a child has a right to a certain number of years of education. The best school which I attended divided classes between academic and social --- the latter were attended with one's age peers (so homeroom, social studies, PE, &c.) while the former were attended at one's ability level (with a cap of four years through 4th grade, so I was in 4th grade but taking 8th grade science, English, and history…

> I would argue that a child has a right to a certain number of years of education. I would also argue society is better if its people are more educated.

I admit this leans into pedantry, but I think it's important not to conflate "amount of education received" with "amount of knowledge possessed". In the US our people are more educated than they've ever been, but I wouldn't say they're more knowledgeable than ever.

I completely agree that the more knowledgeable a society is the better off it is, but if the education industry is allowed to prop itself up with the widespread belief that more years of education necessarily result in a better-off population, you get the military-industrial-style propagation of institutions, loans, debt, and wasted time that we're familiar with today.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#304

Post by LPisGood »

ndriscoll wrote: post #296
LPisGood wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not expand “public school” to include post secondary education to reflect the realities of the modern economy?

If a program doesn't leave the student [economically] better off, then it wasn't about the realities of the modern economy.

If we need to meet in the middle for now and only make all degrees required for jobs free I would be willing to do that, but I also won’t deny the obvious societal benefits to having a collection of people educated in the liberal arts.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#305

Post by blfr »

bitmasher9 wrote: post #284
WillAdams wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that a child has a right to a certain number of years of education. The best school which I attended divided classes between academic and social --- the latter were attended with one's age peers (so homeroom, social studies, PE, &c.) while the former were attended at one's ability level (with a cap of four years through 4th grade, so I was in 4th grade but taking 8th grade science, English, and history…

> I would argue that a child has a right to a certain number of years of education. I would also argue society is better if its people are more educated.

Is it? We have piled on tons of new years of education, are we that much better off as a society, more cultured than, say, the French in the 50s when most people had like 8 classes under their belt?

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#306

Post by throw94949499 »

LPisGood wrote: post #279
throw94949499 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just checked with ai about Berkley (I like this uni from telly): EECS B.S.: You must complete six humanities/social-science courses. Two are Reading and Composition courses, and four come from approved areas such as history, philosophy, arts, international studies, or social sciences. At least two must be upper-division. https://engineering.berkeley.edu/students/undergraduate-guid... All Berkeley undergraduates must…

Putting a broad label of “woke garbage” on simple liberal arts requirements of taking a few classes from “history, philosophy, arts, international studies, or social sciences,” almost does not even justify a response. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’ve never taken such a class, but I can assure that unless you live in a reality so warped by politics, that basic logic and reason is out the…

Friend told me that teacher followed neutral curriculum, but every five 5 minutes there was smugly inside joke about "rape culture" or "white man bad". Kind of like bad standup performance.

Try to bring up something factually correct like: cristian culture in 19th century UK abolished slavery worldwide, and you would get harassed and kicked out of school!

And you do not have to take my word on that, they proudly announce their values on website!

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#307

Post by usrnm »

sgerenser wrote: post #261
usrnm wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a steady supply of new grads to keep the research going. How many exactly is a different question, of course

How much of these new grad researchers have undergrad degrees in music vs. science or math? I’d suspect there’s very few of the former, and even then they got the position despite their music degree not because of it.

Do you only consider fundamental research in maths or sciences worth pursuing? Do you even realise how much of your everyday life depends on the results of fundamental research in philosophy and humanities?

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#308

Post by RandomLensman »

threetonesun wrote: post #295
RandomLensman wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lending is a business in itself, no?

Sure. Maybe in the future we can just add a years tuition to the Apple Card when buying the Macbook for college.

Why not make education free(ish) then?

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#309

Post by hylaride »

bluGill wrote: post #239
IsTom wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this like, a real sum of money americans pay for a degree? Overhead must be mind-boggiling if like just two students are needed to pay educator's salary for the period.

Hard to say I'm sure some pay that price, because that is the sticker price. However, most Americans are getting scholarsips of some sort. There's one college near me that automatically gives every student a 40% scholarship before they even look at what others you're eligible for. That is the sticker price of college is a competition to be who is the most elite. There's also a scholarship competition, so if you have…

Sticker prices are usually designed for specific cases (eg wealthy international students). However, the fact that there's no clear price is a huge problem, much like the American medical industry.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#310

Post by delusional »

ericd wrote: post #266
delusional wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If knowledge and prestige is all that matters, then don't take the loan, take the scenic route, get your degree slowly as and when you have the time and money, and one day you will have something to look back at. Do you see no value in young energetic people being educated while their brains are still maximally plastic, and society get maximal value out of the education? Is there no value in handing over our knowle…

> Do you see no value in young energetic people being educated while their brains are still maximally plastic, and society get maximal value out of the education? Eh, I’ve often thought that going to college would’ve been much better after a few years of building software in the workforce. I didn’t understand the “why” of going into a lot of the subjects I studied, they didn’t have much real experience to attach to i…

> I think Waterloo’s mix of school and working is a pretty solid way to tackle this.

We dont disagree at all here. I attended a university that did project based learning, where each semester was organized around a single semester long group project. That worked wonderfully well for me, and I enjoyed the more freeform learning environment immensly. Those connections you describe is exactly what I could feel forming as I tried to apply what I learned to my project.

There's plenty of room too for what we call "profession schools" that do placement in the workforce. I don't think that fits everyone, but it's not a "worse" kind of schooling at all, and some people really like it. It's honestly quite difficult to accomodate on the workplace side, but if structured well, it's great.

I'm not against post teens/20s education either. I'm honestly for all kinds of education.

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