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John Deere owners will get the right to repair equipment under FTC settlement

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Re: John Deere owners will get the right to repair equipment under FTC settlement

#301

Post by bumby »

atoav wrote: post #122
mothballed wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until you tell them how easy it makes it to bypass emissions restrictions. My tractor was shipped with a screw turned down to Opening up John Deere tractors for right to repair virtually assures they will ~all be doing emissions deletes. Part of their lock-down was profit seeking, but the other half is that different vendors had different ideas interpretations of the law about how locked down the system had to be to…

Yes? But if you want to solve that issue locking down the tech is not the solution. The solution is to have an inspector show up unannounced and give you a hefty fine if that screw is set incorrect. So if that is really an issue, apply the correct fix and don't push the blame on environmentalists.

I think I disagree. I think the administrative overhead makes for additional problems and is certainly imperfect at mitigating the risk.

Risk mitigation (where the risk defined here is emissions outside some acceptable threshold) usually follow this hierarchy from most preferrable to least:

- remove the hazard (make it impossible for emissions to exceed the limit, even by altering the operation)

- install an engineering mitigation (filters, def, altered fuel mapping etc.)

- administrative mitigation (training, inspections)

- protective equipment (?? make everyone in society wear a mask?)

In this framework, a technological solution is preferrable to an administrative one.

Re: John Deere owners will get the right to repair equipment under FTC settlement

#302

Post by gknapp »

everdrive wrote: post #205
maldev wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish he wasn’t such an ass. Had a never meet your heroes moment outside defcon a few years ago. Not a friendly person and went from big fan to disdain when I hear his name.

Not everyone is pleasant to interact with, but that's not quite the same as whether or not they are a good person. The world's a better place with him around.

Socrates was put death in ancient Athens in no small part to how much he was sinply a pedantic ass to everyone he interacted with, and yet it was this incessant questioning which laid the foundation for over two millenia of philosophy.

Re: John Deere owners will get the right to repair equipment under FTC settlement

#303

Post by atoav »

WarmWash wrote: post #216
atoav wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want people not to have out of spec tractors that is a regulation and oversight issue, not an issue of locking down tech. Right to repair argues the tech should not be locked down, it doesn't argue you should be free to break the law. You are also free to remove the handrails on a set of stairs using a simple wrench, but if a building inspector shows up or someone falls because of it there will likely be conse…

>Own a gun? No you don't unless you store it correctly and have documentation of ammunition spent etc. So we will have right to repair but it's only legal if you document all repairs, keep records of parts ordered, only use verified vendors for those parts....etc etc. Right to repair laws shouldn't be onerous, and people should be able to (illegally) remove emissions controls, and we should recognize that as a bad th…

I'd did not claim that things do not have downsides. I said tech embargos are the wrong way to deal with that specific downside and even proposed another way to deal with it (targeted, stochastic checks). If the people making those checks are good, the paperwork you described won't be necessary. E.g. in the EU the police may put your car onto a test stand and measure the exhaust during operation. Who cares what you did to the thing if the result is that it is within the emission thresholds.

In the case of guns this documentation makes sense, because of what guns are used for typically.

Re: John Deere owners will get the right to repair equipment under FTC settlement

#305

Post by throwaway27448 »

Timon3 wrote: post #291
throwaway27448 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if you completely ignore the meaning of "purpose". What an asinine sentiment.

While I'm not sure I agree that the quote is applicable here, it is generally an incredibly useful way to analyze systems. Reality doesn't care what you're hoping to achieve with a system, the outcome won't change based on thoughts and ideas. Since reality tends to be fairly complicated, we usually won't design perfect systems on the first try - instead we have to analyze the outcome, and make changes to nudge the re…

"Purpose" and "hope" (hell let's through "telos" in there) are inherently subjective terms. Conflating this with empirical observation of effect is simply not useful outside of certain political situations where you intentionally want to disregard intent. It's asinine unless accompanied with persuasion that intent is working against collective interests.

In most situations disregarding intent is not useful for getting things done unless you have unilateral power to override intent.

A better explanation is that John Deere, like the massive truck corporations that make pickups, was happy to take advantage of blatant loopholes.

Re: John Deere owners will get the right to repair equipment under FTC settlement

#306

Post by archontes »

Shocka1 wrote: post #300
cgyvbunji wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I think if he did that people wouldn't pay attention. My experience is that when you complain to people about digital rights they just glaze over unless you walk them through all the ins and outs and the implications.

Almost every conversation I've had over the years goes two ways: "Why do you care so much about ? If you have nothing to hide, why are you so concerned?" Or: "Why do you care so much about ? We already walk around with cell phones in our pockets 24/7." I used to be more passionate about persuading people about privacy, but I've pretty much given up. I've come to the conclusion that the majority of the population does…

My response is typically, "I have literally everything to hide. I don't want you to know my middle name. I don't want you to know what I had for breakfast. It's none of anyone's business."

And weirdly, the response I get is, "Oh yeah, fair."

Re: John Deere owners will get the right to repair equipment under FTC settlement

#307

Post by jmole »

tzs wrote: post #99
jamienk wrote: post #73

"Right to repair" isn't some kind of little negotiated contract fiddling. A company can't agree to a 5-year right to repair. Right to repair is a normal freedom, like speech, like using everyday objects you buy or make, generally walking around, meeting people, etc. Don't let's get all twisted up here and start thinking some dumb-ass business plan is the starting point in our basic conceptualization of humanity.

> Right to repair is a normal freedom Right to try to repair is a normal freedom.

"Right to not be locked out of performing repairs yourself" doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well.

Re: John Deere owners will get the right to repair equipment under FTC settlement

#308

Post by throw2ih020 »

gosub100 wrote: post #184
spacedcowboy wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I never watch video posts. I can skim-read a text site in seconds to see if it's worth a real read. I can't do that with video, and there's always some ads in it, whether the author put them there or not. I hate ads. And it's not just HN either, video is a very poor substitute for a well written article. Video can augment a well-written article, but it can't replace it.

Posting here for anyone who might not know this: you can click and hold on most YouTube videos and they will play at 2x. I find that to be a good test at whether the host is communicating effectively. If I can understand them perfectly clear at 2X they are talking too slowly.

I prefer to download the video using yt-dlp and then watch at 2.5x in mpv.

Re: John Deere owners will get the right to repair equipment under FTC settlement

#310

Post by gleenn »

frogulis wrote: post #128
gleenn wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extra props for tilting thw windmill that is tech behemoths funneling data to government agencies without oversight. Aiming at Amazon is certainly something not to be taken lightly.

Your "tilting at the windmill" phrasing is interesting. I don't get the sense from your tone otherwise that you disapprove of it or think it's pointless.

"Tilting the windmill" is from Don Qixote who famously fights a windmill (which is a bit absurd) so he is courageous but also a bit foolish.
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