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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#301

Post by [deleted] »

semking wrote: post #206
gruez wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The picture at the end showing deepseek's privacy policy and being concerned that it's "a security risk" is hilarious[1]. Basically every B2C company collects this sort of information[2], and is far less intrusive than what social networks collect[3]. But because it's Chinese and at the risk of overtaking Western companies, people are suddenly worried about device information and IP addresses? [1] https://semking.com…

One of my core followers named Bruno basically said the same thing under my Linkedin post yesterday: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/organic-growth_deepseek-the-o... I welcome friction, so I'll be blunt: I disagree with you, not because what you are saying is wrong but because you only consider systematic data collection. That's not the issue here. There's a difference between democracies like the United States or Eur…

[deleted]

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#302

Post by deeviant »

Hmm, let’s see—it looks like an easy legal defense.

DeepSeek could simply admit, "Yep, oops, we did it," but argue that they only used the data to train Model X. So, if you want compensation, you can have all the revenue from Model X (which, conveniently, amounts to nothing).

Sure, they then used Model X to train Model Y, but would you really argue that the original copyright holders are entitled to all financial benefits derived from their work—especially when that benefit comes in the form of a model trained on their data without permission?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#303

Post by jchook »

Friendly reminder that China publishes twice as many AI papers as the US[1], and twice as many science and engineering papers as the US.

China leads the world in the most cited papers[2]. The US's share of the top 1% highly cited articles (HCA) has declined significantly since 2016 (1.91 to 1.66%), and the same has doubled in China since 2011 (0.66 to 1.28%)[3].

China also leads the world in the number of generative AI patents[4].

1. https://www.bfna.org/digital-world/infographic-ai-research-a...

2. https://www.science.org/content/article/china-rises-first-pl...

3. https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb202333/impact-of-published-res...

4. https://www.wipo.int/web-publications/patent-landscape-repor...

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#304

Post by liendolucas »

Could this have been carefully orchestrated? Could DeepSeek have devised this strategy a year ago and implemented knowing that they would be able to benefit from OpenAI models and a possible Nvidia market cap fall? Or is it just way too much to come up with about such a move?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#305

Post by Rebelgecko »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #165
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

Scraping data is different from scraping outputs from a model.

Copyright is weird and often legal ≠ moral, but I'm having a hard time constructing a mental model where it's ok to scrape a novel written by a person but it's not ok to scrape a story written by chatgpt

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#306

Post by tw1984 »

mritchie712 wrote: post #71
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

openai should pay creators, but: 1. scraping the internet and making AI out of it 2. using the AI from #1 to create another AI are not the same thing.

#1 is stealing from all average joes ever lived on earth

#2 is taking advantages from closedAI.

they are indeed different

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#308

Post by pphysch »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #255
stackghost wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don’t care for Sam Altman and his general untrustworthy behavior. But DeepSeek is perhaps more untrustworthy. Models from American companies at least aren’t surprising us with government driven misinformation, and even though safety can also be censorship, the companies that make these models at least openly talk about their safety programs. DeepSeek is implementing a censorship and propaganda program without admit…

> Models from American companies at least aren’t surprising us with government driven misinformation

There are loads of examples on the internet of LLMs pushing (foreign) government narratives e.g. on Israel-Palestine.

Just because you might agree with the propaganda doesn't make it any less problematic.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#309

Post by btbuildem »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #53
whatshisface wrote: post #19

It's reasonably likely that a lot of people linked to the federal government want to ban DeepSeek. You can tell it's being presented away from "they gave us a free set of weights" and towards "they destroyed $1T of shareholder value." (By revealing that Microsoft et al. paid way too much to OpenAI et al. for technology that was actually easy to reinvent.)

Theoretically this should be good for OpenAI - in that they can reduce their costs by ~27x and pass that along to end users to get more adoption and more profit.

> pass that along to end users

I don't think that's at all likely in the current economic system

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#310

Post by thiago_fm »

wanderingmoose wrote: post #297

There is a lot of discussion here about IP theft. Honest question, from deepseek's point of view as a company under a different set of laws than US/Western -- was there IP theft? A company like OpenAI can put whatever licensing they want in place. But that only matters if they can enforce it. The question is, can they enforce it against deepseek? Did deepseek do something illegal under the laws of their originating c…

The most interesting part is that China has been ahead of the US in AI for many years, just not in LLMs.

You need to visit mainland China and see how AI applications are everywhere, from transport to goods shipping.

I'm not surprised at all. I hope this in the end makes the US kill its strict IP laws, which is the problem.

If the US doesn't, China will always have a huge edge on it, no matter how much NVidia hardware the US has.

And you know what, Huawei is already making inference hardware... it won't take them long to finally copy the TSMC tech and flip the situation upside down.

When China can make the equivalent of H100s, it will be hilarious because they will sell for $10 in Aliexpress :-)

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