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Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

economist.com

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Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#301

Post by mcv »

GiorgioG wrote: post #228
david-gpu wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proving my point, because something like 80% of the land in Toronto is zoned for single-family housing. The Toronto metropolitan area is one massive sprawling suburb. How would these numbers look like if we had more dense walkable neighborhoods? No need to speculate, simply look at similar statistics from places like Montreal.

Not everyone wants to live in dense housing. I grew up in Buffalo and spent many many hours on the QEW driving family to/from Pearson Intl. Every ride up there I'd be in awe of the number of cranes in the sky as new (I assumed) residential buildings were going up around Toronto. It seems like high density developments are a thing in the GTA: https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/02/07/gta-communities-worry... and like eve…

From what I understand, a big problem in North America is that there is almost no new mid-density building. Most is low density, and where anything denser is allowed, it's immediately all skyscrapers. The few surviving mid-density neighbourhoods, especially when walkable, are often extremely popular and expensive, but very rare, and no new ones are being built because the zoning rules don't allow them. These are choices that simply aren't available in much of North America. People can't vote for them with their feet if they don't exist and people aren't aware of them.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#302

Post by LoveMortuus »

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

I'm also a millennial and while I don't like having to pay for maintenance and fuel, driving around the country side has been one of the best spent time. I love the views and the silence*, the feel of the road and the discovery of unknown views.

I don't have a lot of money, some might even say that I don't have money.

I drive a Citroen Saxo 1.0 year 2000 in the golden colour and the incredible sense of freedom it gives me is strong enough where I don't care how much a car costs ( It cost 350€), I don't care for luxury, I mean my radio stopped working about three years ago.

I still remember my father telling me many years ago, not being able to drive is like not being able to read or write, you're basically illiterate, and to some extent I have to agree.

Having a car gives me the same feeling of freedom that I've felt when I was able to walk again after getting my legs messed up.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#303

Post by lotsofpulp »

taylodl wrote: post #287

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

There are plenty of very high quality vehicles available for purchase at less than $47k for new and $28k for used.

The average sale price is skewed by people choosing luxury purchases by buying larger (and fancier) than necessary vehicles. Also can be skewed by vehicles lasting longer in the first place, meaning poorer people do not need to buy cars as often, but richer people can choose to buy cars more often.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#304

Post by antiframe »

kubb wrote: post #64
mft_ wrote: post #61

Eh, this is a very city-centric view. As discussed many times past, including on HN, if you live in or near a major city, and in a country or area which prioritises goood public transport, you can get by admirably --even better-- without a car. As soon as you move even a little away from the metropolis, and/or to somewhere that doesn't prioritise good public transport, access (at least) to a car becomes close to a ne…

True, the car is necessary in some more places. You wouldn't be able to bring groceries, furniture, building materials, tools etc. without it. But whenever I can avoid driving, I prefer to do that.

I buy groceries every week. Several times a week when I want something fresh. There are three shops in walking distance.

I don't buy furniture every week. Nor building materials. It's cheaper for me to rent a car for those occasions than to maintain a private car 24/7 for that.

Cars being necessary for some tasks does not mean it's necessary to own and garage one they will sit idle most of the time.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#305

Post by bluGill »

moffkalast wrote: post #257
_dain_ wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those cities have extensive networks of local rail, subway, trams, and buses. So "the other side of town" is easily reachable.

And you again need to figure out and get whatever local card or ticket or app they decided to use to pay for all that, because there is zero standardization, which adds even more financial overhead assuming you're only visiting once, plus figuring out the timetable and route plan so you don't end up on the completely opposite end. Lots of "Oh wait, you were supposed to take the #15 bus, but this is a #15B which doesn…

Transit agencies should come up with a reciprocity plan. You don't live here, but you have have a monthly pass for the city you live in so I'll let you ride my system for a week - or if system prices are too different pro-rate your time so you get a great discount.

Note that a large part of the above is I think transit agencies should try to get as many people as possible on unlimited ride family passes. Anyone with such a pass must find transit useful enough to use often anyway, and the pass means they don't worry about making one additional trip they just go.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#306

Post by macNchz »

nicbou wrote: post #133
JustARandomGuy wrote: post #3

Millennial: same feeling here. When I talk to people of my parents generation they always talk about how cars let them roam about and give them freedom. I never felt the same way, and I think a large part of that is that I grew up with the Internet; I could always AOL Instant Messenger (AIM) my friends or use ICQ. I was always connected even during an era of dialup. With the always-on functionality of modern phones,…

The feeling of freedom is only relative to the isolation of being a suburban teen without a car.

Absolutely...I grew up in a rural place and got a driver’s license at 16, but have lived in NYC for over a decade and have thought about this often.

Teenagers here have no need to have a license or a ride from a parent to meet up with their friends. The level of independence is totally different, starts earlier, and is way safer.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#307

Post by ghaff »

dagw wrote: post #204
mcv wrote: post #155

My parents wanted to pay for my driver's license when I turned 18, but I didn't want one. (I wanted a good electric guitar instead, though it's been stolen since.) Lived most of my life without a car, and so did my brother. Worked fine. I only got a driver's license when I got married and my wife insisted, because she didn't want to the only one driving the kids around. (She mostly insists that she drives, though.) I…

In a well-designed city, most people don't really need a car. For me a car isn't for getting around the city or getting to work (I much prefer walking/biking/taking public transport for that), but getting away from the city. To get to my favourite walking trail by the sea or the local ski slope is a 30 minute drive or 1.5+ hours by public transport. Getting to the slightly larger ski resort is a 90 minute drive or al…

That's really the key point and where a lot of the disconnect comes from.

If I lived in Boston/Cambridge, say, and rarely needed/wanted to leave the city I'd probably be fine with not owning a car. But just 5 minutes ago, I was emailing with some friends about getting together on the weekend somewhere out in the country. Yes, I could rent a Zipcar or a conventional rental but that gets old for doing things out of the city on a regular basis--especially spontaneously.

But there are comments on this thread to the effect of "But I don't really need to go anywhere. I have the Internet." And that's a fundamentally different perspective and set of priorities.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#308

Post by pwpw »

galangalalgol wrote: post #19
TillE wrote: post #4

If you live in anything like a real city and don't absolutely need a car to commute, the misery of street parking alone vastly outweighs any kind of occasional benefit. But it's nice to have a license so you can rent a car if you really want to.

What is a real city? I live in one of 20 biggest in the US, but even #2 LA is pretty hard to get around without a car. My experience in traveling has been that places where carless transportation is easy, are places I can only afford to visit, not live.

I sold my car when I moved to LA because traffic was so horrible. I intentionally moved into an apartment close to a metro line, which I took into work. For groceries, I rode my bike into the neighborhood city center (which many LA neighborhoods have).

I loved playing Game Boy or reading a book on my way to and from work. Getting around the neighborhood by bike was wonderful with the LA weather. Occasionally I would go somewhere that needed a car such as off to the mountains to ski, so I would ride with my friends who were joining. If no one owned a car, I’m sure we could have rented. I also once got staffed down in OC for work, so I talked with someone on my team and coordinated carpooling with them, which allowed us to use the HOV lane and improve the horrid traffic situation. My coworker was happy to go out of their way to pick me up in exchange for HOV access.

I’ve since lived in big Texas cities and have been able to also live without a car, but I find it much more difficult because there are zero viable public transit options. LA’s public transit is nothing to write home about, but it is usable. You just need to have a good attitude and plan your life ahead of time. Ride sharing and rentals can fill in the rest.

To your point, LA became much more affordable when I got rid of my car. My situation was not perfectly replicable by all, but I do think the issue of car ownership and getting around without one isn’t an all or nothing affair for every citizen. In my situation it worked. For others, it would not. It would be great if more cities simply allowed for the option of getting around without a car and invested in alternative modes of transit. Ideally for me, I’d have a car that I would use for some errands and take public transit for others.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#309

Post by davidmurdoch »

taylodl wrote: post #287

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

Not just that, cars are boring now .

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#310

Post by PartiallyTyped »

jimbo9991 wrote: post #141

People are really out to lunch if they think this is due to people not wanting cars and preferring public transit. I wish that was the case, but it's 100% because of the dire financial situation.

You'd be surprised if you lived in Copenhagen for a while. About 2/3 of the population commutes either on foot or through public transit.

Personally, I am walking 40 minutes each way to go to work, or uber in the morning and walking in the afternoon. It's not that I can't afford a car. I am just not interested in owning one.

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