Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens • Hacker News Board

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#301

Post by b112 » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 7:13 PM UTC

willnonya wrote: post #255

ajross wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's... no, I think that's just objectively wrong. Have you actually used all these systems? Display latency in the device-remote schemes is really pretty awful, where the Tesla screen scrolls like butter. Obviously no one is an expert on all these things, but I watch friends' vehicles and the occasional rental, and it's really not close. I went quickly to youtube to check, and pulled up this comparatively recent M…

You touch on one of the key problems here. "Not showing the current UI". Allowing cars to follow the same ui refresh cycle as cell phones undermines the predictability of operating the vehicle. There has to be a balance between the "always new" and "never updated" approaches here.

I'd say a car's core ui, everything from how to wipers work, to brake pedal sensitivity(changed in a few tesla updates?!), should require a manual update, a discussion with a car tech, and a sign off by the customer.

None of this stuff should ever, ever change in an update, without blaring, in your face, clear walkthroughs on the change.

And none of them should be forced, or preclude other updates. EG, by no means, should the control system of a car you paid tens of thousands for, suddenly change post sale.

Consumers first, safety first, cost savings and "cool factor" complete last.

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#302

Post by Eisenstein » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 7:13 PM UTC

phpisthebest wrote: post #178

jeroenhd wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody ever demanded touch screens. Cars already had navigation built in that had no touch screens nor a need for them. Car companies choosing cheap, substandard designs to save a buck is something the car companies decided on. The market being a race to the bottom is visible in every single space where only a few companies control an entire industry. From supermarkets to cars, from soft drinks to tech, when competit…

>>where only a few companies control an entire industry. I feel like we are now into the absurd... You know what kills competition. REGULATION. Every industry where you can cite limited competition I can tell you the regulations that killed that competition. Unregulated industries have LOTS of innovation and competition. Regulated industries have slow innovation and no competition. Free market work because of competi…

There is no fair market without someone ensuring a fair market. Before the FDA grocers were selling milk to families which "was routinely adulterated with water, rotten eggs, flour, burnt sugar and other adulterants with the finished product then marketed falsely as "pure country milk" or "Orange County Milk".

People like you went on about how regulation would kill the industry and hurt the market, but what was really killed was more than 8,000 infants (ibn one year alone)[0].

Industry does not care about your life or your family or babies because they have no feelings. They exist to compete and win, at any cost.

Without something (democratic government is a good option for this) looking out for consumers, and for the other market players, your Ayn Randian fantasy will come about, and it will not be the utopia of consumer choice and meritocracy, it will be the later 1800s all over again, with most people poor to the point they are feeding their children milk with plaster in it, and a few robber barons controlling entire industries and killing competition before it can compete.

Do not look at 'free markets' with some rose colored glasses, because without ensuring industry deals with externalities and without ensuring that competition can happen by preventing on company from owning entire supply chains or cartels setting prices and preventing innovation, then the market would not be fair a t all, and most people's lives would be exponentially more miserable.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swill_milk_scandal

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#303

Post by mrtweetyhack » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 7:14 PM UTC

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Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#304

Post by newaccount74 » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 7:15 PM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #195

PreInternet01 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, thank you for mentioning digital dashboards, I completely forgot about those! So, in addition to mandatory physical controls for common functions, my imaginary EU legislation would also prescribe that all essential vehicle information (speed, outside light status, fuel level) has a physical representation (lights, dials, etc., in the sense that there is nothing that could be described as 'software' driving these…

I cannot imagine how anybody can stand the constantly changing value of a digital speedometer as it flickers around whatever your intended speed is. Give me a needle any day.

I have a digital speedometer with a 7 segment display in my Citroen and it doesn't flicker at all. It updates roughly once a second or so -- quick enough to feel responsive, but slow enough to not annoy me.

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#305

Post by frosted-flakes » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 7:16 PM UTC

Kaibeezy wrote: post #209

prepend wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a COVID project, I looked for a Saab to play around with. The cheapest I found was a 2009 crappy GM 9-3 for $11k. I really miss my pre-Malibu 900s and 9-3s.

My understanding is that a 2005 or earlier (pre-Dame Edna) 9-5 still had oversight from the Swedish engineering and manufacturing team. For example, an austere Saab dashboard rather than a blingy Buick one. Not sure when that switch happened for the 9-3, but it would have been for whatever facelift happened around the same time. 2003 Aero is the sweet spot. GM sales “engineers” tried selling with all-options-standard…

It's amazing that they even had a "nightpanel" button to turn offvthe lighting for everything except the speedometer. That is such a cool feature.

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#306

Post by phpisthebest » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 7:19 PM UTC

CodexArcana wrote: post #297

phpisthebest wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That however was not my opening inquiry which was "is there any area of life at all in the EU that should be free from government interference?"

That's not what you said. You said "why does the EU believe that every part of life needs government regulation." And it's because, as Milton Friedman once said, "a corporation's responsibility is to make as much money for the stockholders as possible." Without a counter balance you wouldn't have seat belts, crumple zones, fuel efficiency standards, the list goes on and on. Safety is not the responsibility of the cor…

>>as Milton Friedman once said, "a corporation's responsibility is to make as much money for the stockholders as possible."

That is an over simplification of his Position, and often misused as you have here, just like people that misuse Poppers paradox of tolerance to justify censorship of people they dislike, you misuse Friedman to criticize a economic system you dislike

>>Safety is not the responsibility of the corporation.

Yes and no. They still face liability if not protected by the government. Which often time government regulation come with liability shields protecting said corporations that is why large corporations like regulation; as it often prevents competition while at the same time protecting them from liability

Further they face competition based on safety, automotive companies compete widely on the safety records of their vehicles with many marketing the features and safety testing results that exceed government requirements, this means there is a MARKET driver to increase safety and it is not just government regulations that drive safety.

Infact some automakers are at odds over the government because technology in the area of safety (lighting is the big one) is changing faster than regulations can keep up and many manufacturers would like to make changes to their cars that would make them safer but are prohibited because of regulations.

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#307

Post by b112 » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 7:21 PM UTC

nmeagent wrote: post #300

phpisthebest wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are included on Airplanes because you need those to make a safe stop (aka Landing) you DO NOT need a speedometer or any dash display at all to safely pull a car to the side of the road and stop. Therefore they should not be mandated under safety regulation, if you have a car with a digital display and it fails you pull your car to the side of the road, put on your hazards and call for a tow to the mechanic Just…

> you DO NOT need a speedometer or any dash display at all to safely pull a car to the side of the road and stop. You do if there isn't a good place to stop and you need (or would rather) keep driving for awhile first, say in the middle of an obnoxious construction zone with no shoulder, or on a mountain pass with no shoulder, or in a sketchy area in the middle of the night (summoning a tow truck can literally take h…

Yes but by that logic, we should mandate dual tires on all rims, just becuase we can.

You're perfectly find driving without a speedometer, till out of the construction zone.

I had a car with a busted one for a decade, and you know what I did? I drove with the flow of traffic.

Really, a dash display is not a safety feature.

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#308

Post by pleb_nz » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 7:22 PM UTC

phpisthebest wrote: post #178

jeroenhd wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody ever demanded touch screens. Cars already had navigation built in that had no touch screens nor a need for them. Car companies choosing cheap, substandard designs to save a buck is something the car companies decided on. The market being a race to the bottom is visible in every single space where only a few companies control an entire industry. From supermarkets to cars, from soft drinks to tech, when competit…

>>where only a few companies control an entire industry. I feel like we are now into the absurd... You know what kills competition. REGULATION. Every industry where you can cite limited competition I can tell you the regulations that killed that competition. Unregulated industries have LOTS of innovation and competition. Regulated industries have slow innovation and no competition. Free market work because of competi…

While I agree in some areas, this is a safety topic imo and corporations are all about making profit for stakeholders period.

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#309

Post by HPsquared » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 7:23 PM UTC

afandian wrote: post #36

PreInternet01 wrote: post #17

I would love to see some EU legislation about car dashboards. As an occasional driver of many different brands and types of vehicles, I continue to be amazed at the usability crimes being committed in the name of 'looking cool' (stated reason) as well as 'cost savings' (most likely the real reason). Any function that needs to be invoked or setting that needs to be changed by a reasonable person while driving should h…

In the Tesla FSD video[0] the driver spent a lot of time swiping back and forth on the map. If that touchscreen were an iPad, that behaviour would be illegal in the UK. I don't know what the road law is in the US, and if they sell the same Tesla model in the UK. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34268454

The law specifically refers to handheld devices. If the tablet is mounted to the dashboard, it doesn't apply. Same with phones in phone holders.

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#310

Post by phpisthebest » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 7:24 PM UTC

nmeagent wrote: post #300

phpisthebest wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are included on Airplanes because you need those to make a safe stop (aka Landing) you DO NOT need a speedometer or any dash display at all to safely pull a car to the side of the road and stop. Therefore they should not be mandated under safety regulation, if you have a car with a digital display and it fails you pull your car to the side of the road, put on your hazards and call for a tow to the mechanic Just…

> you DO NOT need a speedometer or any dash display at all to safely pull a car to the side of the road and stop. You do if there isn't a good place to stop and you need (or would rather) keep driving for awhile first, say in the middle of an obnoxious construction zone with no shoulder, or on a mountain pass with no shoulder, or in a sketchy area in the middle of the night (summoning a tow truck can literally take h…

Then you can slow to a reasonable safe speed and proceed on visual cues alone

Still do not need a speedometer, you should be able to judge you speed with in 5-10mph by visual alone, if you can not you probably should not be driving in the first place.