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Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

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Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#301

Post by smoldesu »

ddek wrote: post #152

I've really given up on the operating system debates. I don't think it's a very interesting subject, because I think the individual constraints are more important than general 'UX' concerns. My personal computer usage is about 60% web browsing, 10% coding, and 30% AoE2. The game really doesn't run well through proton, at least not enough to play competitively, so I'm kinda locked onto Windows. I think it's stupid to…

FWIW, AoE2 appears to have Gold compatibility[0] with Proton, meaning you can expect a Windows-like experience when launching it with Steam. Maybe it's time to give it another look?

[0] https://www.protondb.com/app/221380

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#302

Post by AnthonyMouse »

pjmlp wrote: post #283
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The year of Linux on the desktop" is a meme for a specific reason. It'll take longer than a year. The claim is funny because you imagine the whole world switching to Linux, like, overnight. Which is obviously unrealistic. It's a gradual process. But last year Chromebooks outsold Macs. Chromebooks are Linux. Even if they're not "Linux Linux," there isn't much you can do with one that you can't do with most other dist…

Outside US school market and Googleplex, Chromebooks are nowhere to be found. Also running the Linux kernel is an implementation detail, those that allow for GNU/Linux applications and Android, without breaking security into developer mode, do it with additional VMs, hardly any different from running WSL + WSL/Android on Windows 11.

> Outside US school market and Googleplex, Chromebooks are nowhere to be found.

Lots of consumers buy them directly from Best Buy etc.

But let's say they're only used in schools. Well, then the next generation is being brought up with machines that don't depend on any Windows apps.

> Also running the Linux kernel is an implementation detail, those that allow for GNU/Linux applications and Android, without breaking security into developer mode, do it with additional VMs, hardly any different from running WSL + WSL/Android on Windows 11.

That means it's a subset of Linux. It can't do things Linux can't do, so switching from there to "real" Linux has no significant barriers.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#303

Post by md8z »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #300
md8z wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume customers don't want to be tied to Windows which is not the case. Maybe you and I got sick of Windows 20-30 years ago but Microsoft's customers (the vast majority of desktop computer users) don't care. They see ads in the OS and they think "that could be our ad up there".

Sure they don't care. But that means they don't care. If you tried to sell a PC with Linux on it at Walmart in the year 2000, people would return it because it wouldn't natively run Microsoft Outlook or Starcraft. If in a few years from now you're on webmail regardless and it can run every game on Steam, there is no reason to return it. And it costs less by the amount of a Windows license, so there is a reason to buy…

That cost reduction doesn't just come out of thin air. If you want to build software that is competitive with Windows in other aspects, then you will have to charge similar amounts. Otherwise you're just leaving money on the table, because we know by now that customers are extremely willing to pay for it. And as long as Microsoft is shipping new APIs on Windows, Linux will never be able to run every game on Steam or every Windows program. It will always be perpetually behind playing catch-up, just like it has been for the last 25 years. The problem with your plan (and with all of these type of plans that I've seen people post) is that it requires Microsoft to give up and cede the market, which is not going to happen.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#304

Post by filmgirlcw »

pxc wrote: post #284
filmgirlcw wrote: post #186

Disclosure: I'm a developer advocate at Microsoft with a focus on Linux, I am typing this on a laptop running Windows 11 (it also has another SSD that runs Linux), and I'm a diehard Mac user. I hate this sort of SEO-driven clickbait that is trying to inflame wars that frankly, were settled two decades ago. Use Linux. Use Windows. Use macOS. Use Chrome OS. Use OpenBSD. Use Haiku. If you're a complete masochist, use GN…

> Again, use whatever you want. But this is such lazy writing It is, but I also think ‘use whatever you want’ is lazy, or at least resigned, in a different way. There's a pattern that often takes hold with new desktop Linux users involving an intense evangelism phase. Some of the reasons for that phase are cultural artifacts that aren't especially interesting or valuable, like a tendency to ground one's identity in c…

> To be clear, I agree with most of what you've said and overall critique of the specific article in the OP. But I want to point out that ‘why Linux’ as a genre or topic is not just flamebait, and that there are other articles along those lines that I think have a legitimate place on HN or any forum where people are interested in people's experiences with computers.

This is totally fair and I wouldn’t want to imply otherwise. My issues are with this article and the others of its ilk, but not the general genre of content.

And you make good points about “use whatever you want” being an uninteresting meme too.

And you make excellent points about the evangelism phase (which I think we both agree, this article isn’t indicative of, tho I imagine the person who shared it might be in that wonderful phase themselves), which is definitely important. As a longtime Mac user, we have that phase too (also, the fact that I still primarily identify as a Mac user even tho I’ve been using Linux since 1998, even if primarily on the server (I still distro hop like a mofo all the damn time tho), speaks to those cultural artifacts you mention that just stick with us), and Mac users are just as obnoxious as Linux users but in a different way.

I truly have come to a place where I want people to enjoy what they enjoy and share that. I’m just exhausted by the evangelism and fierce defensiveness by any sect. But I’m definitely guilty of it too (she says as she types away at 100 words a minute on her iPhone that she is slavishly devoted to).

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#305

Post by vetinari »

goohle wrote: post #259
blakebreeder wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't feel that way at all about Linux and I daily drive it. Could you imagine our mothers troubleshooting any of the following things that have regularly happened to me on Linux in the last 5 years I've been daily driving it: * Hm, my sound stopped working. * Hm, dhcp stopped working. * X has completely failed to start. * This website just straight up doesn't load. * Thia game won't load (pretend it's solita…

My mom uses Fedora Linux for more than 15 years. She never saw any of that. I perform upgrades when necessary.

Similarly, my parents are on Ubuntu LTS since 6.06 (not on the same computer, obviously), when I got tired with regular windows reinstallations. There have been exactly two problems:

- "internet doesn't work" -> yanked ethernet cable. Later I made sure it cannot be easily yanked.

- "printer doesn't print" -> classic inkjet problem with dried ink. Inkjet replaced with b/w laser. no problems since.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#306

Post by vetinari »

xtracto wrote: post #239
iso1210 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to linux around the time ME was on the shelf, not sure why I'd want to move to windows, I want something that just works.

I also want something hat just works! When I boot Windows, my 2 plugged monitors work seamlessly. When I boot Linux... it's complicated [1] (pragmatically it doesn't work because I am using Nvidia drivers, and won't use the shitty Nouveau drivers. And even if you use them , good luck tinkering for hours with text config files and whatnot) Linux mint 20 is my main OS in my self-built PC ( and works for me pretty well…

While I can imagine that making Nvidia cooperate with another GPU is difficult under Linux, it is not just "plug a second monitor".

It is running two GPUs, one of them Nvidia. That's an entirely different league, than plugging a second monitor into a Linux system.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#307

Post by md8z »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #231
mkipper wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget that it might come bundled with other helpful updates with no way to choose which pieces to pull in. I can't believe people are actually comparing telemetry in Windows to Linux.

> I can't believe people are actually comparing telemetry in Windows to Linux. I'm not surprised - at least some of these people are Microsoft employees so it's no wonder they try to use the same strategy as always - fear, uncertainty and doubt. After all, if people start believing that "Linux also has telemetry", why even consider switching? Actually I'm happy to hear it from the mouth of Microsoft employees (especi…

There's no FUD. Ubuntu actually does have telemetry. KDE does too. It may not be quite the same in implementation as Microsoft's telemetry, but it is there. There is also nothing to be afraid of here either, the effects of it and how to use it are all spelled out clearly in the respective privacy policies.

https://ubuntu.com/legal/data-privacy

https://community.kde.org/Telemetry_Use

"Why even consider switching" is the eternal question that Linux companies have not been able to adequately answer for the last few decades. If you know of a good reason, let me know. Otherwise we can agree that the "war" was already over a long time ago and Microsoft won pretty clearly.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#308

Post by AnthonyMouse »

md8z wrote: post #303
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they don't care. But that means they don't care. If you tried to sell a PC with Linux on it at Walmart in the year 2000, people would return it because it wouldn't natively run Microsoft Outlook or Starcraft. If in a few years from now you're on webmail regardless and it can run every game on Steam, there is no reason to return it. And it costs less by the amount of a Windows license, so there is a reason to buy…

That cost reduction doesn't just come out of thin air. If you want to build software that is competitive with Windows in other aspects, then you will have to charge similar amounts. Otherwise you're just leaving money on the table, because we know by now that customers are extremely willing to pay for it. And as long as Microsoft is shipping new APIs on Windows, Linux will never be able to run every game on Steam or…

> That cost reduction doesn't just come out of thin air. If you want to build software that is competitive with Windows in other aspects, then you will have to charge similar amounts.

The assumption here is that development costs are linear.

If you spend a thousand dollars developing an operating system and your competition spends a million dollars, theirs won't be a thousand times better than yours, it will be infinitely better because theirs might actually boot and yours won't.

But if you spend a billion dollars and they spend a trillion dollars, theirs won't be a thousand times better than yours, it will be 2% better. Maybe. Because your billion dollars already caused to exist an operating system that does everything people need from an operating system and there is a point of diminishing returns. Which is where all the major operating systems already are.

What you would expect in a market like this is price competition. 80% as good for 20% of the price wins. 98% as good for 0% of the price wins even more. We're already there -- Microsoft has been giving away the Windows 10 and Windows 11 upgrades for free. They now need that to be competitive.

They can add new APIs all they want, but if Valve is providing ones that are just as good and will allow your games to run on their consoles which have any non-zero market share in addition to Windows, developers will prefer those.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#309

Post by msla »

filmgirlcw wrote: post #210
msla wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are plenty of Linux distributions with tons of telemetry and spyware (Deepin Linux is literally run by the Chinese government) Trying to "Both Sides" telemetry and spyware fails because you can use Linux without either, whereas macOS and Windows are inherently married to it and you can't use them without submitting to their respective surveillance regimes. Oddities like Deepin barely matter and can't be used…

I actually disagree. Ubuntu has a lot of telemetry on by default (unlike Deepin, they disclose this, but I'm pointing this out) and for many years, Canonical really tried to push the whole account login thing (RIP Ubuntu One). Not to mention the time Ubuntu inserted Amazon affiliate links into the search app (which to their credit, they eventually removed -- tho the Amazon app that was just an affiliate launcher didn…

> Ubuntu has a lot of telemetry on by default (unlike Deepin, they disclose this, but I'm pointing this out) and for many years, Canonical really tried to push the whole account login thing (RIP Ubuntu One).

You can try to make me conflate Linux and Ubuntu but I'm not going to. Debian and Slackware don't have those kinds of things, and, more to the point, you can use the Linux kernel without those kinds of things. It's both technically and legally possible. Can't really say that about Windows or macOS.

> like user accounts (tied to app stores or whatever)

No, most package repos don't require user accounts.

> giving back telemetry (which is often really, really important for developers to have)

Plenty of developers manage just fine without it. The developers of most of the software on a Linux system, for example, with the exception of mainstream web browsers.

> or are part of major enterprise servicing agreements that have a lot of tracking and management by design.

Enterprise is Enterprise. They're off in a world all their own.

> But I think that ignores a fundamental way humans use computers and the web -- regardless of OS. You're being surveilled. Linux isn't going to save you.

Inviting the surveillance into my home is different from being watched when I go outside.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#310

Post by ghoward »

I have been a Linux-only user on the desktop since 2011. I've been thinking of jumping ship to FreeBSD for better ZFS support and a more cohesive experience, but I'm still on Linux for now.

But I do try to make my software portable across all major OS's, so I have a hard drive specifically for Windows in my machine, and I do boot it.

I hate it when I have to. Even though the only thing I do when I boot it is work on open source software, I get nervous about how much data is being mined on me because I can't tell. Hence why I only work on open source software.

(And before anyone tells me that Linux is spying on me too, I run Gentoo with everything, including my ungoogled browser, built from source. And I watch my network traffic.)

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