20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports? • Hacker News Board

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#301

Post by tomjen3 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #82

baktubi wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the nation should make military training/civil service mandatory. The reality is that random attacks will happen in random places and everyone needs to be equipped to handle accordingly. Basic combat training and paramedic abilities, disaster recovery and such associated procedures. This would create a tighter bond between citizens and improve communities ability to look after one-another. If everyone handles…

>> military training/civil service mandatory. >> Basic combat training and paramedic abilities Those are very different things. Not every soldier is taught hand-to-hand combat. Not every civil service volunteer is taught to handle a weapon. And basic first aid training is almost universal already. More lives could probably be saves by everyone being trained in basic mental health and de-escalation techniques.

Maybe additional training in first aid helps in a terrorist attack, maybe it helps when grandpa has a heart attack. At any rate it is hard to see the downside. Maybe, except that if you do this in the US you end up politicizing first aid too.

The other side of the coin is that we should be focusing left-of-bang, preventing terrorism much earlier.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#302

Post by bserge » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #290

the_snooze wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. It's not a 9/11-style attack we need to be worried about. No one will let a plane get commandeered ever again. The 9/11 terrorists took advantage of the "comply with the hijackers" policy in place at the time. That opportunity ended the moment the second plane hit the towers. The real threat is lone wolf random attacks on the general public like the DC sniper. That's a very low-cost high-impact attack tha…

That attack was overhyped by the media, which suggest a way to stop them. Personally I am far more concerned by the rent/steal truck and mow down pedestrians mode that we have seen in France and Germany. You might be able to do more about gun safety. You can't really prevent a madman from driving up on the sidewalk deliberately and almost any person can rent a van.

Couple that with a bomb inside the van, ez killscore.

But why kill? Why not attach several 20W lasers to a drone and fire them up on a busy bridge/road? Living in suffering is a worse fate.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#303

Post by duxup » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

LanceH wrote: post #267

duxup wrote: post #222

So much security that not sense. I attend college football games. Everyone goes through security. Outside security we pack up in masses of humanity outside the gates waiting to get through the inevitably slow security. It would be far more effective to do something at the gates dude to the density of humanity there where there is no security ... than in the stadium where people are actually more spread out. If someon…

> What are we doing this for? At college football games this is all done to drive up the price of concessions.

I have my doubts that the cost of hiring that much security makes them much of anything. I didn't see anyone bringing picnics to the game ... at all even before the events.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#304

Post by duxup » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

spoonjim wrote: post #231

duxup wrote: post #222

So much security that not sense. I attend college football games. Everyone goes through security. Outside security we pack up in masses of humanity outside the gates waiting to get through the inevitably slow security. It would be far more effective to do something at the gates dude to the density of humanity there where there is no security ... than in the stadium where people are actually more spread out. If someon…

That security isn’t necessarily to stop terrorism. It’s also to stop people from bringing in weapons and then using them in drunken brawls.

>using them in drunken brawls.

That's not a thing at games I've been to.

Lots of drunken folks, but fights are exceptionally rare.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#305

Post by maybelsyrup » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #288

bserge wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal of terrorism is to scare people into restricting their own freedoms. It has worked amazingly well so far. To any motivated anti-society organization or person, this is huge leverage. A few deaths leading to a noticeably more authoritarian state? What's not to love? It doesn't even matter if the authorities do their job and punish those responsible, the people will still choose to restrict their own freedoms…

This actually isn’t the goal of terrorism. I’ve studied terrorism and the definition is essentially non-state actors using violence for political means. Now we can go in to various conspiracies from “Bush planned 9.11 as a false flag” to “Bush ignored intelligence reports so he could launch the war on terror,” but those are mostly just unproven conspiracies unrelated to what al-Qaeda wanted.

> non-state actors

States can, have, and do engage in terrorism.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#306

Post by MrGilbert » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

conductr wrote: post #280

MrGilbert wrote: post #228

Totally unrelated, but I still remember what I did on 9/11. I was in my teens. I know the date, I know the weekday, I know everything I did in the 24 hours it happened. However, despite being the much "fresher" events, I don't know the weekday my grandparents and parents passed away, let alone what I did back then. My memory is... interesting.

I'm a bit older and have experienced a handful of 9/11-like events [0]. They always stand out more vividly as a shared global/national experience whereas things like family members passing is highly localized to your family. You could easily escape the mourning by talking to friends/coworkers/etc that had no idea your family member passed and the conversation would give you a sense of normalcy. During/following 9/11,…

Yeah... Thinking about it, I remember my mum watching the funeral for Lady Diana back in 1997.

> It consumed the nation for a fair bit of time.

Now I'm European, and I remember that our teachers back in school spend the whole day explaining what happened, and maybe why. (It was late afternoon here, when the attacks started, so I'm talking about the next day). But everyone was in disbelief, and also afraid of the response.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#307

Post by voidfunc » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

Pay the TSA Pre shakedown fee and you don't need to take your shoes off.

The problem is we created a monetary incentive to keep the current policy in place.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#308

Post by bluedevil2k » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

trident5000 wrote: post #138

bluedevil2k wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re vastly overrating the ability of the common American to make rational decisions. In a stressful situation where a gun may be necessary, without proper and continual training, that ability drops to near 0. Look at the police - they use their guns incorrectly all the time and they’re trained peace officers. An average American, in an argument, maybe mix in some alcohol, with a gun in their pocket…many many sense…

Not every person is going to carry a gun. And you need to be trained. Thats a requirement to concealed carry today.

Not in Texas or 18 other states! Get up to date on the gun laws.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#309

Post by jdavis703 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

ctrlp wrote: post #264

fma wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I get the magic "Pre-check" and I'd forget I don't need to take the laptop off, for example. I just try to look ahead and see what others are doing.

Pre-check screening is the EZPass of the security state. Exchange your privacy for convenience. Submit to a background probe and permanent residence in a government database (and god knows what other consents are required) and you, too, can join the upper tier of society. Leave the filthy plebes and their shoeless drudgery and pat-downs behind you as you ascend into the clear air of the Verified(TM) elite. You pose n…

Aside from the interview, the government already has all the background check data in their databases already. It’s not like you’re applying for a security clearance where agents go around your friends, family and neighbors digging up undocumented dirt.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#310

Post by bserge » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

Ekaros wrote: post #74

satya71 wrote: post #2

I already don’t. Turns out the solution is to give up some privacy and pay some money.

That is what I find so strange, isn't it likely that this privileged group could be infiltrated?

Very likely, if anyone cares enough.