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Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

nytimes.com

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Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#301

Post by asoneth »

sokoloff wrote: post #224
robocat wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your example is like saying playing NBA basketball makes you taller. His point was that there are plenty of people that don’t become wealthy even though they work hard and have hustle. And there are plenty of wealthy people that didn’t need to work hard to get it. Looking at the self-made wealthy will select for people that “do”, but that does not imply that “do” makes you wealthy.

For any given individual "do" is almost surely better than "not do". That's the choice facing an individual as they contemplate how to live their life.

I completely agree. But I there's a middle ground between "nothing you do matters" and "you can accomplish absolutely anything if you put your mind to it". People at either extreme of the spectrum are more likely to end up disappointed with their lives than someone in the middle.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#303

Post by bshoemaker »

John23832 wrote: post #7

Two parts: First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. Being a do-er lifts you out of poverty (or at least out of poverty's worst resting state). Being a do-er expands your network. Being a do-er prolongs your life (people with jobs/daily activities tend to live longer healthier lives). The best part about this is that technology has made it easier to become a do-er. You don't need a…

Being a do-er... what a nice, simple, seemingly intuitive concept.

I grew up in a rich area; all of my friends (even the screwballs) are in white-collar jobs, they are all "senior this" and "lead that". I'm 30. Even the people who were serious screw-ups, getting in trouble, drugs, rehab, etc. are doing relatively well - they just had unlimited re-tries.

On the contrary, my wife is from a relatively poor area. Most of the people she knew are poor, have a number of kids, and are just struggling to make ends meet in blue collar jobs.

I don't think my rich kids group had "the ability to DO THINGS". They just had every advantage & their failures were just setbacks in a nearly inevitable path to success.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#304

Post by pnutjam »

slg wrote: post #185
John23832 wrote: post #7

Two parts: First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. Being a do-er lifts you out of poverty (or at least out of poverty's worst resting state). Being a do-er expands your network. Being a do-er prolongs your life (people with jobs/daily activities tend to live longer healthier lives). The best part about this is that technology has made it easier to become a do-er. You don't need a…

>First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. Being a do-er lifts you out of poverty (or at least out of poverty's worst resting state). Being a do-er expands your network. Being a do-er prolongs your life (people with jobs/daily activities tend to live longer healthier lives). The best part about this is that technology has made it easier to become a do-er. You don't need as much spe…

Thank you, this whole discussion seems to have turned into a circle-jerk to prove how hard working and deserving wealthy people are, when then simple fact is they are all born lucky.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#305

Post by pnutjam »

mathgladiator wrote: post #164
only_as_i_fall wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. How do you define that though? Do you consider someone working a minimum wage job full-time to be in this category? Someone making $15-20 an hour but without any real opportunity for advancement? I don't understand the criteria.

This speaks towards hustle culture. As a kid, I was making $20/hr plus by going door to door raking leaves. The narration of 'get a job ' is not for doers, but rather 'go produce value for others'.

Ask me how I know you grew up in a wealthier neighborhood.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#306

Post by asdff »

iammisc wrote: post #179
silvestrov wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> higher taxes on business Denmark + Norway: 22% Sweden: 21.4% Finland: 20% Germany: 15% Nederlands: 25% France: 25% USA: 21% (but 35% until 2017). So the tax argument does not hold, especially for the period before 2017. Birth rates are also the same: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/total-fertility... > the EU is not particularly excellent at any Odd that there are so many EU countries at the list of mo…

> Odd that there are so many EU countries at the list of most happy countries when EU is not good at anything Putting words in my mouth. I never said the EU is not good at 'anything'. But it's not as good as America in terms of financing, innovation, or education. One does not need great capital access, top-notch technology, or even the best education to be happy. You sad that european safety nets lead to the ability…

Does the median american even benefit from these sorts of things? I would guess not at all, but I'm sure for the 1% the regulatory environment is extremely favorable. Someone working with their hands doesn't care much about national financial policy, since it has very little practical effect on their life vs. something like a national healthcare policy, which they would use regularly throughout their lives.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#307

Post by twiddling »

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/educational-pluralism-in...

"In reality, the U.S. is an outlier. Educational pluralism—a school system in which the government funds and regulates, but does not necessarily provide, public education—is the democratic norm around the world. The list of educationally plural systems is long, and it includes the United Kingdom, Hong Kong, Belgium, Denmark, Indonesia, Israel, Sweden, and France."

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#308

Post by jltsiren »

WalterBright wrote: post #159
John23832 wrote: post #7

Two parts: First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. Being a do-er lifts you out of poverty (or at least out of poverty's worst resting state). Being a do-er expands your network. Being a do-er prolongs your life (people with jobs/daily activities tend to live longer healthier lives). The best part about this is that technology has made it easier to become a do-er. You don't need a…

> chronically underfunding schools In Washington State, for decades there was a big push to "fully fund" the schools. They finally got their way a couple years back, i.e. just about everything they wanted. There has been zero improvement in results. There has been no further mention of "fully funding" the schools in the press since, but the demands for more and more money for the schools have not abated at all. Edit:…

Institutional changes take time. Even with all that additional funding, it's still the same teachers teaching the same kids in the same schools. If the level of funding remains stable and the society gives the schools and the teachers sufficient autonomy, you may expect results in 20-30 years.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#309

Post by asdff »

flavius29663 wrote: post #193
silvestrov wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> higher taxes on business Denmark + Norway: 22% Sweden: 21.4% Finland: 20% Germany: 15% Nederlands: 25% France: 25% USA: 21% (but 35% until 2017). So the tax argument does not hold, especially for the period before 2017. Birth rates are also the same: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/total-fertility... > the EU is not particularly excellent at any Odd that there are so many EU countries at the list of mo…

The corporate tax might be nominally higher in the US, but the cost of doing business is definitely higher in Europe. When you have to pay 55% to the state if an employee has a salary above 100k, that will seriously hinder your ability to hire top talent, retain them, and motivate them (why work harder if it will go down the tax drain?)

It's not a tax drain though. It funds things like higher education and healthcare. Things that most Americans have to pay out of pocket if they want which entrenches the lack of class mobility in this country. Imo the european system is better.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#310

Post by jordan_curve »

commandlinefan wrote: post #112
benrbray wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my own perhaps limited experience, I've never really encountered anyone who is simply incapable of deep thought / critical thinking. I've met plenty of people who have a learned helplessness when it comes to, say, math. I've studied alongside classmates who could't spend as much time studying as me, simply because they had to support themselves with part-time or full-time work just to keep their head above water.…

> I've never really encountered anyone who is simply incapable of deep thought / critical thinking Well, hang on - there are actually learning disabled people who are incapable of learning to tie their own shoes. That's an extreme outlier, of course, but it suggests that there are two possible interpretations for "intelligence": one, that everybody has an upper cognitive limit that they'll never be able to surpass, a…

Hey this was me!

When I was a child, my parents tried very hard to teach me how to tie my shoes, but I could not figure it out. To this day, I just tie them in knots and then make loops to make it seem like I tied them properly.

I now have a PhD in mathematics and work at a top tech company.

It turns out that I have pretty severe dysgraphia (I have difficulty with cognitive tasks requiring fine motor skills). I think people only noticed because I couldn’t tie my shoes.

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