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The value of downvoting, or, how Hacker News gets it wrong (2009)

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Re: The value of downvoting, or, how Hacker News gets it wrong (2009)

#301

Post by phpnode »

Koliakis wrote: post #295
phpnode wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw something earlier today that said (inelegantly paraphrasing) "developers read articles as if they themselves were a compiler, immediately stopping as soon as they reach a sentence they disagree with and then throwing a syntax error" I think the same thing applies here

It's a pattern of behavior that affects a lot of online communities from what I've seen, not just HN, but it's particularly concerning when I see that kind of stance here. There are a number of writers who I disagree with on an ideological level but whose writings and podcasts I'll read/listen to because of the insight these people can provide - even if often I don't agree with their conclusions. I think it's importa…

I agree, one very concerning trend I've seen on Twitter (and it's probably seeping into other online spaces too) is that merely following or engaging in discussion with someone whose ideas are controversial can be grounds for a blocking or pile-on.

Another quote I saw today: "90% of the internet is just people imagining a guy, tricking themselves into thinking he exists, and then getting really mad at him."

Re: The value of downvoting, or, how Hacker News gets it wrong (2009)

#302

Post by akerl_ »

type0 wrote: post #290
ddevault wrote: post #139

Hacker News gets it most wrong with the flagging system, which is ripe for abuse (and is constantly abused). I sent this to dang some time ago, and was met with a muted response: I realized something interesting the other day - users gain access to downvote comments once they reach 501 karma. I've always inferred that this is to make it so that users cannot downvote until they have demonstrated some understanding of…

Yeah, I think the guidelines should state that you can't just flag everything you disagree with, there should be consequences for that sort of behavior.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173836 May be of interest to you, notably the part about flagging privileges being removed if somebody is misusing the feature.

Re: The value of downvoting, or, how Hacker News gets it wrong (2009)

#303

Post by whatshisface »

jacobr1 wrote: post #271
prichino wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least he has opinions. The "everyoness must code" folk sometimes do sound like markov-generated text. Funny that you hold his coding opinions in less respect for what is most decidedly a not coding-related opinion. Substitute coding for "advanced mathematics", "investment banking", "nursing". Would you lose respect for a professional nurse's nursing opinions if he said learning to nurse is a really dumb thing to d…

An alternative analogy would be "learning first-aid is a dumb thing to do unless you become a medical professional." I wouldn't lose respect, but it is a narrow view, and one worthy of debate. "Programming" is such a powerful tool for everyone to interact with technology and we could do a better job exposing programatic abstractions. Think of how many people use spreadsheets with complex expressions. Is that that not…

The problem is that basically every profession contains some parts that basically everyone could benefit in their daily lives from knowing. Chemistry, mechanical engineering, finance, accounting, law, sales... programming is just one item on a list of thousands of things that would be nice to know. It's not reasonable to hold it up above the rest when all of the other ones also deal with things modern life runs on. If there's a message I can get behind, it's "learn more than school taught you, and keep learning after graduation," but holding up one subject above the rest on the grounds of its importance seems a little flimsy when they're all that important. So, all of the things you could be learning on your down time are about equal. If programming has a high place, it's a high place shared among all the rest. Knowledge does have a high place, after all.

Re: The value of downvoting, or, how Hacker News gets it wrong (2009)

#304

Post by karaterobot »

TheManInThePub wrote: post #135
CDRdude wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think slashdot’s voting system was well equipped to avoid that problem, but they faded anyway. Maybe it was the redesign? I think many of their innovations in 1999 would go a long way to resolve political downvoting today—-new accounts were unable to vote on comments, you were unable to vote and comment in the same posts, metamoderation to ensure fairness, and up or downvotes having to fit categories like ‘insightf…

Frankly, I couldn't agree with this more. I've seen intelligent and insightful HN posts down voted simply because they went against the status-quo. If this is allowed to go on, people will be afraid of making controversial (but intelligent) posts, and this place will become another reddit.

Agreed, though personally I think that the complement is also true, and maybe more insidious: A lot of comments get upvoted because they state an uncontroversial, obvious position that everybody agrees with already.

This is insidious because it encourages people to be the first to say the least interesting thing in order to get rewarded with comment karma. Those comments bubble up to the top of the thread, where they're held aloft by more and more people who see their existing opinions restated.

Ultimately the reward structure encourages discussions where people are indulged, in the same way the punishment structure discourages people being challenged.

I'd say this effect is more pronounced on Reddit than HN, but you can see it here too.

I'm not looking for "edgy" comments, I'm just saying that it's more useful in the long run to upvote comments that provide new information or perspectives, or at least state a common sense position in a different, compelling way.

Re: The value of downvoting, or, how Hacker News gets it wrong (2009)

#305

Post by bscphil »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #212
kodah wrote: post #187

I've been downvoted to [dead] before, though I've never gotten mad about it. One trend I have noticed is that on HN you won't necessarily be downvoted for your idea but you definitely will be downvoted for how you present it. If you come off as vitriolic or angry, you can expect a proportionate response. Frustration seems to be tolerated intermittently.

You can definitely be downvoted for ideas here. Comments that go significantly against the political norms of the site seem particularly prone to this.

> Comments that go significantly against the political norms of the site seem particularly prone to this.

Agree, but notably, the political norms of the site are not distinctively left or right wing. There are any number of opinions that will get you downvoted here (unless your comment flies under the radar), and it really does not matter how thoughtful you are about it.

Example 1 (right wing): opposing gay marriage or abortion rights, opposing taxes, support for Donald Trump

Example 2 (left wing): anti-capitalist views, arguing that Richard Stallman should be removed, general anti-startup culture sentiment, (usually) opposing Elon Musk / Tesla

Example 3 (which side gets downvoted depends on who's awake): your opinion of Brandon Eich, universal basic income, your opinion of Apple (particularly socio-economic), unions

It's really not that surprising; the median Hacker News user is a white American man, wealthier and younger than average, with moderate liberal political views that skew libertarian on social issues. That's a "norm" of discourse even if it doesn't fit perfectly on the American Republican / Democrat spectrum.

Re: The value of downvoting, or, how Hacker News gets it wrong (2009)

#306

Post by tediousdemise »

TigeriusKirk wrote: post #213
dang wrote: post #23

Getting it wrong for 12 years now: The Value of Downvoting, Or, How Hacker News Gets It Wrong (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25633668 - Jan 2021 (1 comment) 10 Years In, Was He Right? “Value of Downvoting; How HN Gets It Wrong” - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23409231 - June 2020 (1 comment) The Value of Downvoting, or, How Hacker News Gets It Wrong (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=…

>Getting it wrong for 12 years now What do you think HN does get wrong? Phrasing it in a more positive way, what could you do to raise the quality of conversation on HN even higher?

I think dang was being facetious here when he said "getting it wrong." He knows damn well that downvoting does no good for a platform since it is so easily abused to suppress ideas.

Re: The value of downvoting, or, how Hacker News gets it wrong (2009)

#307

Post by hobonate »

asimjalis wrote: post #50

I feel like Hacker News leaderboard was a lot more interesting in the 2000s than it is now. Can anyone put their finger on why this is?

I just downvoted your comment.

***FAQ***

What does this mean?

The amount of karma (points) on your comment and Red-I mean "hacker" "news" account has decreased by one.

Why did you do this?

There are several reasons I may deem a comment to be unworthy of positive or neutral karma. These include, but are not limited to:

*Rudeness towards other Posters,

*Spreading incorrect information,

*Sarcasm not correctly flagged with a `/s`.

Am I banned from the HN?

No - not yet. But you should refrain from making comments like this in the future. Otherwise I will be forced to issue an additional downvote, which may put your commenting and posting privileges in jeopardy. If you accrue enough down-votes, dang will be forced to hellban or IP-ban you, which will completely and permanently prevent you from using the website whatsoever (until you get another account and IP which takes like 2 minutes).

I don't believe my comment deserved a downvote. Can you un-downvote it?

Sure, mistakes happen. But only in exceedingly rare circumstances will I undo a downvote. If you would like to issue an appeal, shoot me a private message explaining what I got wrong. I tend to respond to PMs within several minutes. Do note, however, that over 99.9% of downvote appeals are rejected, and yours is likely no exception.

How can I prevent this from happening in the future?

Accept the downvote and move on. But learn from this mistake: your behavior will not be tolerated on news.ycombinator.com. I will continue to issue downvotes until you improve your conduct. Remember: HN is privilege, not a right.*

Re: The value of downvoting, or, how Hacker News gets it wrong (2009)

#308

Post by Dumblydorr »

paxys wrote: post #298
Graffur wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact it seems like a no brainer decision. Why should a day 1 account be able to downvote content?

Why should a day 1 account be able to upvote content? They both ultimately have the same impact.

Well, you can use a bunch of troll accounts to downvote people who disagree with you. Meanwhile, troll accounts up voting a bad post would put it neutral or slightly positive, I'd guess.

Re: The value of downvoting, or, how Hacker News gets it wrong (2009)

#309

Post by GuB-42 »

prichino wrote: post #239
cryptoz wrote: post #216

I used to read Coding Horror but stopped paying attention to Jeff Atwood after his anti-coding rant. He repeatedly insisted that "learning to code" is a really dumb thing to do unless you intend to make a career out of it. A really shocking opinion that I was surprised to hear from him, and made me lose all respect for his coding-related opinions.

At least he has opinions. The "everyoness must code" folk sometimes do sound like markov-generated text. Funny that you hold his coding opinions in less respect for what is most decidedly a not coding-related opinion. Substitute coding for "advanced mathematics", "investment banking", "nursing". Would you lose respect for a professional nurse's nursing opinions if he said learning to nurse is a really dumb thing to d…

Basic mathematics, personal finance and first-aid are things everyone should learn.

Same thing for coding. It is unreasonable to ask everyone to write a compiler or anything on that scale, but I don't think that fizzbuzz is too much to ask. Computers are part of our everyday life now, and teaching the basics of coding early-on can help demystify them. I also think that like maths, it promotes a rigorous and logical way of thinking that can be useful in other fields.

Re: The value of downvoting, or, how Hacker News gets it wrong (2009)

#310

Post by [deleted] »

phpnode wrote: post #273
disgrunt wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no opinion of Atwood and am unfamiliar with his work. But a single opinion/rant made you lose all respect for a person? I see this sentiment a lot on HN. The fatal opinion minefield.

I saw something earlier today that said (inelegantly paraphrasing) "developers read articles as if they themselves were a compiler, immediately stopping as soon as they reach a sentence they disagree with and then throwing a syntax error" I think the same thing applies here

[deleted]
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