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Information operations directed at Hong Kong

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Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#301

Post by tptacek »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #242
dang wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two site guidelines that apply to this. First, it's not ok to use HN primarily for political, ideological, or national battle. If a commenter is posting as you describe, we ask them to stop. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20727426 . But by no means does it follow that a commenter behaving that way must be a sockpuppet, astroturfer, shill, spy, foreign agent, etc. That's where the second guide…

Your principles seem to be summed up as: so long as someone is speaking their opinion respectfully and in good faith, it matters not what that opinion is; and that the defense of this necessitates a generous presumption of good faith. We must acknowledge that HN carries a substantial degree of influence, and consider how to responsibly wield that influence. The readers here are a lucractive demographic - generally we…

This incredibly rude comment will do nothing to reduce oppression anywhere in the world, but I'm sure it made you feel better to write it, and that's all that matters, right?

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#302

Post by meowface »

zawerf wrote: post #210
tmux314 wrote: post #42

Good on Twitter and Facebook. On top of blocking thousands of websites (which includes Facebook, Google, Twitter) China's government employs thousands of government employees just to purge even the most mild criticism of the CCP on Weibo [1]. They also employ tens of thousands to export their propaganda overseas, using sock puppet accounts to push their worldview[2]. And their worldview is fiercely anti-democratic. T…

There are pretty fun examples of how people try to dodge censorship. For example the Hong Kong billionaire Li Kha Shing managed to post a two page newspaper ad which contains a hidden message: https://i.imgur.com/7IJLn3g.jpg Translation: https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/csg9yz/hong_kong_bill...

That's a super clever way of hiding a message.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#303

Post by dang »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #242
dang wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two site guidelines that apply to this. First, it's not ok to use HN primarily for political, ideological, or national battle. If a commenter is posting as you describe, we ask them to stop. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20727426 . But by no means does it follow that a commenter behaving that way must be a sockpuppet, astroturfer, shill, spy, foreign agent, etc. That's where the second guide…

Your principles seem to be summed up as: so long as someone is speaking their opinion respectfully and in good faith, it matters not what that opinion is; and that the defense of this necessitates a generous presumption of good faith. We must acknowledge that HN carries a substantial degree of influence, and consider how to responsibly wield that influence. The readers here are a lucractive demographic - generally we…

I wouldn't summarize what I said that way at all.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#304

Post by Sir_Cmpwn »

dang wrote: post #299
ddevault wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> I sought out information about you to judge your biases. I found that you're... I don't know how you could think that it's ok to pull a move like that on HN, but it's not ok. Specifically, checking up on and bringing in someone's personal circumstances, which they didn't choose to mention, in order to use them as ammunition an argument is not ok on HN. Please don't do that. I'm glad that you didn't publish the deta…

The information is in their profile, just one click away and you don't even have to leave HN.

Don't you think we ought to be vigilant of these biases when discussing the very matter of whether or not these biases are subverting the discussion?

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#305

Post by sittingnut »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #288
taneq wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so long as someone is speaking their opinion respectfully and in good faith, it matters not what that opinion is; and that the defense of this necessitates a generous presumption of good faith Isn't that the point of a discussion forum such as HN? > I think it's reasonable to suggest that certain viewpoints are simply not welcome on Hacker News I disagree that contrary viewpoints "no matter how eloquently stated" s…

What about calls to kill all jews, very reasonably and eloquently stated, still welcome? How about calls to have sex with children, still ok with you? What about support and calls for mass shootings, executions and genocide? What happens when supports for these views grow by virtue of them being in people's faces a lot? Plenty of internet communities have been hijacked by these mentalities, usually in some misguided…

do you understand the difference between calls for violence (such as "kill all jews", "have sex with children", etc), and non violent opinion, which may include hateful, racist, sexist speech(such as "jews control media and government", "average iq of various ethnic groups differ", "men and women have different abilities", "trans women are not women", "abortion is murder",etc )?

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#306

Post by adjkant »

egdod wrote: post #287
girvo wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make a decent argument that it has been, and definitely is sometimes, for certain definitions of "government" and subsections of people. Whataboutism is lazy though, and I do find it telling that the go-to argument a lot of pro-China commenters across platforms use is exactly that...

When slavery was legal, sure. But in the last, say, 50 years (e.g., since the 64 Civil Rights Act)? I don't see it. Also, I'm not aware of multiple definitions for the US government.

Police brutality, racially targeted drug operations by the CIA/FBI, and the ignoring of the AIDS crisis come to mind in the past 50 years. The civil rights act didn't magically solve everything. Those are just a few major things, plenty of others to go around.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#307

Post by mb_72 »

bobjordan wrote: post #273
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your principles seem to be summed up as: so long as someone is speaking their opinion respectfully and in good faith, it matters not what that opinion is; and that the defense of this necessitates a generous presumption of good faith. We must acknowledge that HN carries a substantial degree of influence, and consider how to responsibly wield that influence. The readers here are a lucractive demographic - generally we…

"In the case of Hong Kong, the ideals at risk here are the right to self-governance." American here using a VPN from China, not an operative. My view after 10 years in China with businesses in China and Hong Kong, is that it is useful to think about Hong Kong similarly to a USA state. It's a state where the people inside can exit into China at will, while all the other people in all the other states in China must get…

> the murder rate is literally 10x worse in the USA

I would be more likely to believe crime statistics published by the US government than the Chinese government.

> That's what they value here and it brings a type of freedom that you can't enjoy in the USA.

Well, that would be a single freedom, if those statistics are to be believed, that China apparently has that the USA doesn't. I would much rather have a greater chance of being murdered in a democratic and free society than feeling supposedly 'safer' in a country like China.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#308

Post by meowface »

Solvitieg wrote: post #234
khawkins wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Internet cannot remain free if we allow governments to use their power to control narratives and suppress the truth. I wish more people applied this same line of reasoning towards the US-based social media companies themselves. If we hold true that Twitter's influence is so powerful that world superpowers are gaming it effectively to control narratives, then why aren't people more outraged at the near constant c…

The hive mind refuses to engage with hard-hitting analysis like this. Hence the down votes and no responses. Outside of this scope, what is concerning me is that you can't hold a pro-china position. Look at the other comments here. > I have some friends in China posting similar anti-protest posts on WeChat social media. It's like the news they read has a completely different story than what it's being told in legitim…

It's not election meddling. It's counter-meddling. Counter-meddling is itself kind of a form of meddling, but you're left with no choice if your platform is in the process of being deceitfully meddled with by one of the most powerful states in human history.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#309

Post by spacehunt »

bobjordan wrote: post #273
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your principles seem to be summed up as: so long as someone is speaking their opinion respectfully and in good faith, it matters not what that opinion is; and that the defense of this necessitates a generous presumption of good faith. We must acknowledge that HN carries a substantial degree of influence, and consider how to responsibly wield that influence. The readers here are a lucractive demographic - generally we…

"In the case of Hong Kong, the ideals at risk here are the right to self-governance." American here using a VPN from China, not an operative. My view after 10 years in China with businesses in China and Hong Kong, is that it is useful to think about Hong Kong similarly to a USA state. It's a state where the people inside can exit into China at will, while all the other people in all the other states in China must get…

> It's a state where the people inside can exit into China at will, while all the other people in all the other states in China must get permission to enter Hong Kong.

This is not 100% true. Setting aside the fact that not all permanent residents in Hong Kong are Chinese nationals, there have been many cases where people have been denied entry into mainland China. But this is a minor point compared to the next point you make:

> So, its a state where the people living inside have all the benefits of being Chinese, with few of the downsides.

As a native HKer this sounds very weird. I'm not sure how the previous point leads to this.

Anyways, I know this is how it's portrayed in mainland China, but the current movement is not about creating an independent Hong Kong separated from China. Sadly, most mainland Chinese people have already made up their mind and let their patriotism fuel their hatred towards Hong Kong.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#310

Post by mycall »

tmux314 wrote: post #42

Good on Twitter and Facebook. On top of blocking thousands of websites (which includes Facebook, Google, Twitter) China's government employs thousands of government employees just to purge even the most mild criticism of the CCP on Weibo [1]. They also employ tens of thousands to export their propaganda overseas, using sock puppet accounts to push their worldview[2]. And their worldview is fiercely anti-democratic. T…

Most of those "sock puppet" accounts are not hard to detect and bucket.
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