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Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

businessinsider.com

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Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#301

Post by lobotryas »

tcgv wrote: post #295
lugg wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, no western agent is being obliged here.. The argument is a neutrality one, essentially that Google and Apple should not be enforcing morality here or abroad. Should we also just drop sanctions and ban exports to these nations while we're at it?

I was pointing out that the argument of sovereignty is flawed, since companies such as Apple and Google can at any time choose to respectfully withdraw their operations in Saudi Arabia if they feel their products and services are being used to curtail human rights. Sovereignty in its own right cannot be used to justify complacency.

No, they can’t “just withdraw” without a compelling business reason because their leadership answers to their shareholders.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#302

Post by lozenge »

rapind wrote: post #297
sjwright wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if BMW decided to limit their cars to roads approved by BMW, that’s their prerogative. Who are you to tell a private company what products they’re allowed to make? The correct solution is for consumers to buy the product that suits their needs. It’s worth pointing out that the BMW approved roads have much better fatality statistics than the unapproved roads, and there’s almost guaranteed to be an approved road that g…

What? If I buy the car, I own the car. BMW has no say in where I drive it. I could only see this argument if I was borrowing / leasing the car from BMW. You'd have to change what ownership means for this to make sense.

If you buy a Blu-Ray player it will only play approved disks. Heck, the iPhone can only run iOS.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#303

Post by anonlastname »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

I support the Google play model- if you want to have your app on the Google Play store it has to conform to certain standards, but the operating system allows you to install arbitrary APKs

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#304

Post by close04 »

rapind wrote: post #297
sjwright wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if BMW decided to limit their cars to roads approved by BMW, that’s their prerogative. Who are you to tell a private company what products they’re allowed to make? The correct solution is for consumers to buy the product that suits their needs. It’s worth pointing out that the BMW approved roads have much better fatality statistics than the unapproved roads, and there’s almost guaranteed to be an approved road that g…

What? If I buy the car, I own the car. BMW has no say in where I drive it. I could only see this argument if I was borrowing / leasing the car from BMW. You'd have to change what ownership means for this to make sense.

It depends on what you sign when you buy it. You may very well buy the right to drive the car but not the car itself (like a leasing where you don’t actually own the car until fully paid).

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#305

Post by _bxg1 »

AlexandrB wrote: post #174
_bxg1 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. Smartphones are now essential, so you can't completely avoid doing business with at least Google xor Apple, but you can absolutely give up one-click shopping. I've never used it. I've never had Amazon Prime. It's been multiple years since I last bought anything at all on Amazon. I've used Uber less than five times (and Lyft none), and the last time was over three years ago.…

> Smartphones are now essential, so you can't completely avoid doing business with at least Google xor Apple... What? Why? Smartphones are convenient, but essential? Phone calls and SMS/MMS still work without a smartphone.

There are plenty of (nontrivial) services, devices, etc. that you simply can't use without a smartphone any more. Most of that dependency is artificial, but it exists nonetheless.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#306

Post by close04 »

wonthegame wrote: post #299
wongarsu wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly suspect "directly harmed" is a moral judgement, not an objective measure. If female genital mutilation "direct harm"? If yes, does the same apply to circumcision of males? If yes, is denying jewish people a religious practise (and thus potentially entry to heaven) "direct harm"? Different people will answer this very differently, even in the same country and culture. More applicable to this case: Is it ok fo…

Living in constant fear because of your gender and where you were born is direct harm. Being controlled by the opposite gender is a direct harm. Not being able to become educated because you are female is a direct harm to them AND men(and those in between).

But in this case why stop half way? Why sell them a phone (the OS) in the first place? Isn’t this (just like the app) condoning the behavior? Isn’t being their ally the same? Doing business with them in general?

Protesting the immoral behavior only by means that don’t really hurt your own bottom line is not actually doing much except cement the hypocrisy.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#307

Post by _bxg1 »

Santosh83 wrote: post #180
_bxg1 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. Smartphones are now essential, so you can't completely avoid doing business with at least Google xor Apple, but you can absolutely give up one-click shopping. I've never used it. I've never had Amazon Prime. It's been multiple years since I last bought anything at all on Amazon. I've used Uber less than five times (and Lyft none), and the last time was over three years ago.…

Exactly. We seem to forget that our parents lived just fine and even happily without most of these instant-gratification and convenience services. It is possible, if we try.

There are people who often apply this logic to smartphones and even internet access, which is wrong. Those things are now as necessary as cars for participation in society. But there are plenty of other modern products and services that are very much just conveniences, many of which come from the companies with the most scandalous headlines.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#308

Post by gammateam »

JetSpiegel wrote: post #229
gammateam wrote: post #163

I'm loosing touch here, why is this not a manufactured controversy and instead an actual complaint that has any merit? Why aren't we "accusing" ISPs from routing to the website? "Accusing" wayback machine of caching it? "Accusing" CDNs of not null-routing it? so this article gets to masquerade Apple and Google's power consolidation as a good thing and you guys eat it up? I'm going to call my publicist and start my ow…

The web is an open platform. Apple and Google have a walled garden, they are responsible for what they provide.

The only reason they would take down this app is because its more like a web page inside of an executable wrapper, which does violate their quality policy.

They arent responsible to anybody here, and the faux protest will only gives the options of switching to one of thoss two services or becoming a luddite.

This is funny to me.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#309

Post by LifeLiverTransp »

lenkite wrote: post #275
drankula3 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do we draw the line in what norms to enforce? And who determines that those norms are actually better than the ones in place? It seems like this would be a great way for multinational corporations to become cultural and moral enforcers, which causes bad incentives to influence people towards consumption above all else.

Doesn't take rocket science. Are people being directly harmed by this product ? The answer in this case is clearly yes. Take down the app immediately. Freedom of speech is one thing. This app is _specifically_ created to harm women who want refuge.

There are books on direct harm, and robots who force you to quit smoking.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#310

Post by LifeLiverTransp »

lobotryas wrote: post #301
tcgv wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was pointing out that the argument of sovereignty is flawed, since companies such as Apple and Google can at any time choose to respectfully withdraw their operations in Saudi Arabia if they feel their products and services are being used to curtail human rights. Sovereignty in its own right cannot be used to justify complacency.

No, they can’t “just withdraw” without a compelling business reason because their leadership answers to their shareholders.

Which are partially Saudi. Good thing though there are competitors on the market, who dont give a damn on morals. Good thing those giants interwined buisness and morals, and now can be forced to retreat out of markets.
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