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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#301

Post by 08-15 »

Nelson69 wrote: post #117
wyclif wrote: post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

Linking it to "PC" or "women" I think sort of undermines it on a larger level. To take part in opensource, especially a big project like Linux you have to be willing to put yourself out there a little bit. You have to put in some work, and then put something out there to possibly (probably?) be crapped on by people you respect. They might love it and merge it, they might hate it and tell you why, they might come back…

> This guy [...] was making fun of my contribution

That isn't entirely correct, because you contributed nothing. He (kind of) made fun of your attempted contribution. What else could he do?

He could tell you in sterile, technical language that zeroing pages is done for security reasons. You'd probably perceive that as condescending. He could instead ignore you. That wouldn't be nice, either.

If you were Linus, how would you handle your not-quite-contribution?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#302

Post by CoryShmallager »

coffeemug wrote: post #176
serf wrote: post #142

I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…

Same. Linus always called a spade a spade, and I always respected that. In a culture where the Overton window has shrunk considerably and people habitually hide their thoughts, I think this kind of attitude is more important, not less. People give up ability to say certain things in the name of inclusion, and then lose ability to think those things in the first place. I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day, and…

>In a culture where the Overton window has shrunk considerably

How do you figure? Genuinely curious. I think you have to take into account where in the world you're talking about. Perhaps in metropolitan parts of the world this is true, but for other large swaths of the world, especially in politics not just individuals, the opposite is happening with authoritarianism prevailing. It's a pretty stark contrast between cultural mores these days.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#303

Post by quotemstr »

There exists a tremendous danger of overcorrection here. Too much agreeableness is inimical to technical progress, which requires placing technical standards over egos.

While it's counter-productive to provoke people unnecessarily, we can't allow someone's claim to have been emotionally hurt to automatically trump technical criticism. We should strive to be as kind as possible, but not to the point where we begin to sacrifice the truth.

There are some people today who are so averse to negativity that merely saying "this code sucks" is enough to get the speaker called a "jerk". This level of sensitivity is not compatible with a pursuit of technical excellence. We have to be able to acknowledge that both bad and good code exist in order to make technical progress.

I hope Linus doesn't end up being guided by the kind of people who go so far toward protecting people's emotions that they demand we accept technical mediocrity.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#304

Post by DannyBee »

blazespin wrote: post #269
jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

The key, I find, is to be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones. Don't hold back, but be very supportive and positive when more than two people present. I try to explain this to be people I work with, but I don't think everyone appreciates it. Horrible people, in my opinion, are those that do the opposite.

You can be direct without being brutal.

Any variant that invites perspective sharing rather than brutality works fine to accomplish almost any direct feedback.

(IE brutality usually does not admit the possibility others may have a different perspective. You are going to get a lot farther in changing/helping people if you listen to their perspective instead of just yours)

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#305

Post by jakeinspace »

azernik wrote: post #286
jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

I think there's a delicate way to be both "firm" and "polite" - and that's to not be pretend to be "agreeable", but rather to separate the firmness on technical issues from politeness on personal description. That is, to say "this code is awful" while also a) going out of your way to praise the things co-workers/subordinates do well, and b) when it is appropriate to make general judgments on their performance, make i…

100% agree, assertive but kind is a wonderful skill and one which needs to be cultivated. My point is just that for whatever broad psychological reason, this seems to be a somewhat rare trait among very technically proficient people. It's the sort of personality trait that leads people to like and respect you.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#306

Post by JoshTriplett »

arkades wrote: post #291
JoshTriplett wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, being nicer when someone else is watching and could corroborate , while being brutal to people when it's your word against theirs? I wonder why people don't appreciate that advice. "Direct" does not need to go hand-in-hand with "brutal". Don't change your behavior based on who's watching; people deserve to be treated well regardless. EDIT: For clarity, I'm not necessarily suggesting this is the intention, but rat…

I mean, you did just spin it into its worst interpretation. I read the grandparent post as meaning, "Be brutal when the least ego / public stature is at risk, but never cut people down in front of their peers."

That assumes the only problem with being brutal is making people look bad in front of their peers. That's far from the only problem with being brutal.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#308

Post by staticassertion »

I feel like anyone who says "Linus was harsh but fair" never really read much of what Linus said.

Many of his attacks, especially long ago, were quite vitriolic and very much not technical. Oftentimes they weren't rants, just flat out insults, short and mean (I remember, in particular, posts directed towards PaX). They weren't productive, there wasn't a brash technical take buried in them - they were just insults.

Many people seem to just remember snippets of his more popular, more recent rants, which sometimes have some technical take in there at the least, but also, in my opinion, cross well over the line into personal attacks.

Glad he's owning up to the fact that he has some serious social baggage to deal with. I don't foresee the linux kernel community changing much in the near term though.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#309

Post by quotemstr »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #106

The other huge news here, both for Linux and for numerous other communities trying to make similar changes: The most recent commit, right before the release, deletes Linux's "Code of Conflict" and replaces it with a real Code of Conduct, the Contributor Covenant. https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin... https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu... Quoting the commit message:…

Adopting a code of conduct for Linux is a worrisome move. Any code of conduct that purports to police what contributors do outside the context of the project is a totalitarian infringement on individual autonomy, especially since enforcers of codes of conduct tend to take an expansive view of their remit.

What CoC enforcement eventually becomes is a prohibition on project contributors professing political opinions that the CoC enforcers find reprehensible. You don't need a CoC to get civil behavior.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#310

Post by tormeh »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #281
blazespin wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key, I find, is to be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones. Don't hold back, but be very supportive and positive when more than two people present. I try to explain this to be people I work with, but I don't think everyone appreciates it. Horrible people, in my opinion, are those that do the opposite.

So, being nicer when someone else is watching and could corroborate , while being brutal to people when it's your word against theirs? I wonder why people don't appreciate that advice. "Direct" does not need to go hand-in-hand with "brutal". Don't change your behavior based on who's watching; people deserve to be treated well regardless. EDIT: For clarity, I'm not necessarily suggesting this is the intention, but rat…

Well, you avoid anyone losing face, which is important. Being brutal, however, is not a good advice in any situation except a rap battle. Direct != Brutal.
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