Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S • Hacker News Board

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#301

Post by prawn » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:18 AM UTC

klipt wrote: post #264

prawn wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where it's hot, people come home from work as the sun is setting, and turn on the A/C. It can be 85F overnight in many parts of the world, which makes sleep very difficult.

If you leave your AC running all day on solar energy ($0 marginal cost), do you still need to run it at night?

Yes. Our house in Australia is reasonably well insulated, but if I turn off the A/C, it feels warm again within about 15-30 minutes. During summer, it can remain 30C (86F) overnight, and higher than that well into the evening. Recently in Oman, the overnight minimum didn't drop below 42.6C (108F) overnight.

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#302

Post by toomuchtodo » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:23 AM UTC

robocat wrote: post #243

ghouse wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As you have more and more renewable, you need more and more gas plants This is only true if the load on the grid is growing. In North America, it is not. Otherwise, you already have enough dispatchable generation available when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing.

> This is only true if the load on the grid is growing. In North America, it is not. The article I saw the other day showed growth of 4.5% (comparing Q1 2017 with Q1 2018) Surely that growth in production is matched by a growth in load? https://renewablesnow.com/news/wind-solar-farms-produce-10-o...

> Surely that growth in production is matched by a growth in load?

It is not, although consumption growth may trend upwards again as transportation is electrified (and oil consumption moves to electrical consumption).

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-03-01/americans...

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#303

Post by hueving » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:37 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #298

hueving wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If the solar was ruining the grid or was way more expensive than what it seems, we would not keep seeing solar installed at this pace and at these costs. This completely ignores the fact that the people buying solar get subsidies and they aren't the ones paying for the burdened grid. In some states, distribution companies are paying retail prices back to solar producers. That means these people get to freeride on th…

Highly polluting energy sources are not paying to clean up the environmental costs that they produce. Maybe THEY are the free riders.

From some externality to society perspective, sure. But that's definitely not true of a grid operation cost perspective.

A coal power plant does not get paid retail rates for the power it generates. The utility company charges more precisely to pay for transmission and the people to maintain it.

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

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Post by hueving » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:39 AM UTC

heisenbergs wrote: post #285

hueving wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If the solar was ruining the grid or was way more expensive than what it seems, we would not keep seeing solar installed at this pace and at these costs. This completely ignores the fact that the people buying solar get subsidies and they aren't the ones paying for the burdened grid. In some states, distribution companies are paying retail prices back to solar producers. That means these people get to freeride on th…

This completely ignores the fact that every form of power generation is heavily subsidized, one way or another. For example, in the USA "some states" heavily subsidize fossil fuels by not raising any tax on gas. Somewhat of a nitpicking point you are raising here.. The point of the article is that in this case, even without subsidies solar would beat anything else. This is despite heavy import duties that were recent…

>heavily subsidize fossil fuels by not raising any tax on gas.

Unless they are taxing solar, that's not a subsidy when comparing the two.

Where fossil fuels are subsidized is in the externalities they don't pay for (i.e. environmental impact).

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

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Post by megaman22 » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:40 AM UTC

jannyfer wrote: post #267

criddell wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And? I'm still connected to the grid.

I think you are talking about off-grid vs. grid, but the others are not. The cost of solar applies also to utility companies, and I think that’s what GP was alluding to. The grid will switch to solar + battery if it becomes cheaper than alternatives (gas, coal, nuclear, etc.)

Unless battery/storage tech gets wildly better, you're still going to have to have the natural gas turbine plants that we're currently using for peak demand power to smooth out the inevitable spikes and troughs in supply from solar/wind renewables.

It's such a damned shame that so many decades of potential progress in nuclear power were stymied by misguided FUD.

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#306

Post by Schumer » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 3:03 AM UTC

the8472 wrote: post #222

thinkcontext wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need 1:1 storage for solar production but it is a real problem. Germany and California are both facing the problem of the solar "duck curve", that is, high solar production during the day when demand is low and high electric usage at the end of the day when people get home from work as solar production is tailing off. More than batteries they utilize gas peaker plants, inefficient, dirty and expensive plant…

> Dirty By coal standards?

By clean coal standards

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

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Post by chadcmulligan » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:05 AM UTC

CompelTechnic wrote: post #124

rsynnott wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't bet on batteries, or at least conventional batteries, being the long term solution. There's interesting work being done with air pressure storage, flow batteries (the largest batteries currently under construction are mostly flow batteries in the 500MWh-1GWh range, though the technology is still in its infancy), and big scary vacuum flywheels. All of these are far less developed than lithium ion cells, but…

One weird thought I had the other day: high voltage DC transmission lines are getting more popular. I wonder if it would be economical for a high voltage DC line to form a loop around the entire planet, so that the load can follow the sun through a complete cycle.

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#308

Post by cloudkj » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:06 AM UTC

Every time I see a headline like this it makes me think that I should work on some personal DIY projects related to solar to really appreciate the advances. Does anyone have experience or suggestions for cool projects to try?

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#309

Post by sjwright » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:19 AM UTC

thinkcontext wrote: post #247

Jedd wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't need 1:1 storage for solar production... You seem to be referring exclusively to solar photovoltaic. Solar thermal generation has quite a different, evening-friendly, distribution curve.

True, though the article was talking about PV. I haven't followed closely recently but my impression was solar thermal has not delivered as promised. Things like Ivanpah was relying on natural gas more than expected. Is this an accurate impression?

> True, though the article was talking about PV.

Yet confusingly the article chose images of solar thermal. It's a bit of a worry when the journalists aren't conscious of the most basic aspects of the industry they are covering.

Re: Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S

#310

Post by sjwright » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:22 AM UTC

prawn wrote: post #301

klipt wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you leave your AC running all day on solar energy ($0 marginal cost), do you still need to run it at night?

Yes. Our house in Australia is reasonably well insulated, but if I turn off the A/C, it feels warm again within about 15-30 minutes. During summer, it can remain 30C (86F) overnight, and higher than that well into the evening. Recently in Oman, the overnight minimum didn't drop below 42.6C (108F) overnight.

A "reasonably well" insulated house by Australian standards is still laughably poor compared to modern European standards. We build rubbish houses here, and we can't insulate worth a damn.