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New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

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Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#301

Post by HillaryBriss »

kop316 wrote: post #74
paulie_a wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely off topic, but I will never buy another Samsung appliance or anything anymore. Great hardware but shit software...my refrigerator should not need to reboot.

I actually just replaced a 3 year old Samsung Electric Dryer. The heat was no longer working, and I suspect it was the heating element. To access the heating element required me to: - Take off the control board - Take off the entire top of the dryer - Take out the door - Take out the Front panel - Take out the drum I only figured this out after finding a service manual, as I did not want to risk destroying a dryer to…

the situation reminds me of 1950's American cars in Cuba, or the situation with MacBooks and other Macs. replacement is so expensive, some people just repair the product themselves.

is it necessarily a bad thing that, for some products in some times/places, people find repairing their own products the best option?

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#302

Post by throwawayjava »

RandomTisk wrote: post #286
pjc50 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact is, all nations should pursue their self interest. This leads to hugely destructive wars. The history of the post-war order has been trying to build common interest through multilateral institutions.

Nonsense. Self-interest != hostility.

>>> If that wasn't the case, all of these other nations wouldn't be upset about the US change in behavior... The fact is, all nations should pursue their self interest.

>> This leads to hugely destructive wars.

> Nonsense. Self-interest != hostility.

Right. Just because someone is looking out for their own self interest doesn't mean that they are constantly "winning" a zero-sum game with someone else. In fact, sometimes cooperating is the most self-interested move you can make...

Which is exactly why all of these other nations might be "upset about the US change in behavior" without necessarily prescribing any course of action that isn't also in the US's best interest.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#303

Post by workinthehead »

arcticbull wrote: post #228
jonatron wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't explicitly say it was, but you didn't make it clear that Switzerland isn't in the EU.

It depends on what you mean by "EU" - I do understand that EU member state has a specific definition that Switzerland does not meet. What most people think of as "EU" is actually an overlapping patchwork of agreements many of which Switzerland does participate in. True, they're not part of the Euro zone. They're part of the Schengen area (common immigration zone), the EFTA (free trade area), signed the EEA, and adopt…

I would really like to see a source for your claim that "most people" think of the "EU" as something other than the European Union.

Seriously, what's with all the weasel words? Switzerland is not an EU member. End of.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#304

Post by HillaryBriss »

scroogly wrote: post #235
adventured wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over time tariffs will spur increased domestic replacement manufacturing vs Chinese imports. If the US were primarily harming itself with tariffs, other nations wouldn't be reacting the way they are. They all know the game is up and they're all desperately looking to hold onto their advantages. US manufacturing costs are nearly on par with China at this point because of the vast inflation in costs that have occurred…

>They all know the game is up and they're all desperately looking to hold onto their advantages. Don't knock it, that game made the US the richest country in the world. And yes, that game does look just about done right now.

> that game made the US the richest country

i think we're going through a process of reexamining the relevance of that notion. we've quite possibly optimized for the wrong variable.

people in the middle class feel a weaker grip on their long-term stability. the inequality between the richest and poorest in the US is extreme. the social safety net is full of holes. a huge fraction of the US population has less than $1000 set aside for an emergency. health care expenses are simply unmanageable for many many people. and educating the next generation is also so expensive that many students can't pay back their loans.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#305

Post by HillaryBriss »

elihu wrote: post #296
jpindar wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Tariffs bring in taxes (as opposed to costing the public) Tariffs are imposing taxes on the very businesses we're supposedly trying to save!

Something that bothers me about the whole free trade versus protectionism debate is that in any other context it's generally accepted that taxes harm the economy but that harm is offset by the services that government provides, and the argument is mostly over whether those government services are important enough to be worth the economic harm and whether there is a less harmful way to raise that revenue. However, we…

> Trade policies are considered good if they're good for the economy and bad if they're bad for the economy.

are you talking about increasing GDP or some other meaning of "good for the economy"?

what i see is people talking about tariffs as good for a certain sector's workers or bad for consumers or safeguarding US military capabilities or something like that.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#306

Post by HillaryBriss »

mistermann wrote: post #226
netinmate wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right the economy is very complicated, but it seems that the only factor anyone discusses is what's good for the "consumer". I think the "consumer" is a really bad success criteria. I don't really care about what's good for the "consumer", I care about what's good for "the employee", highly skilled jobs, higher wages, and more jobs. These things can't be driven by lowering the cost to consumers, we'll get wha…

(This isn't directed at you, just thought I'd put it here....) I care about what is good for everyone - employers, employees, the overall country, and the overall world (all these same people in other countries), on a long term sustainable basis . Whenever one reads these threads, rarely does one encounter someone who's doing anything other than talking their book, or supporting their personal ideology of "how it sho…

i'm not sure i agree with everything you wrote, but i do share this sense that US policy has tried to optimize for some over-simplified, short-term, dollar-maximizing measurement.

it's not clear that we've been optimizing for something that's actually connected to what makes people happy and satisfied with life.

some people absolutely need to be able to say "We're number one! We're number one!"

but other people would be happier to live in country number 17 if it meant they had a steady job with decent working conditions, reasonable health care, more predictability and a lower crime neighborhood.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#307

Post by Taniwha »

hector_ka wrote: post #251

I am a small electronic board manufacturer in US. I buy bare PCB boards from China and populate them here. Usually the parts are bought from Digikey, Mouser or other distributor. Adding a 25% tax will not incentivize any American company to start produce parts here.It is way to little and to late. If 10 boards are $2 in China, are maybe $30 in US , so even you put 100% import tax, the China price is still competitive…

I think it's creating manufacturing jobs in China. If Trump had instead put a 25%tax on assembled electronics and not components then Apple et al would have an incentive to move manufacturing back to the US - and Adafruit and Sparkfun would not be effected

On the other hand I'm a small open source hardware manufacturer in New Zealand, I manufacture and ship from China - because I couldn't make a competitive product is I built or shipped stuff from here, I live at the end of the world's supply chain - NZ has almost no trade barriers, removed all govt subsidies propping up industry decades ago - we do have free-trade agreements with China - this new regime is good for me Trump's 25% trade barrier let's me compete better against American competitors, driving up their costs but not mine.

Remember you (in the US) have a higher standard of living than China - it's why your labour costs more - frankly you can't compete (and as their standard of living rises China can't compete with Vietnam .... we're already seeing that) - this is how 3rd world countries become 1st world ones, it's how China is building a middle class, which is a good thing, countries with large happy middle classes have a lot to lose and don't like to go to war.

Long term this process will tend to drag the US and China's standards of living to similar levels, if you can keep growth happening in the US at higher rates than China then you may see no change, if you stifle jobs you'll see it drop. Short term this is a problem, longer term looking at the bigger picture it's probably a good thing, a safer world

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#308

Post by arcticbull »

workinthehead wrote: post #303
arcticbull wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what you mean by "EU" - I do understand that EU member state has a specific definition that Switzerland does not meet. What most people think of as "EU" is actually an overlapping patchwork of agreements many of which Switzerland does participate in. True, they're not part of the Euro zone. They're part of the Schengen area (common immigration zone), the EFTA (free trade area), signed the EEA, and adopt…

I would really like to see a source for your claim that "most people" think of the "EU" as something other than the European Union. Seriously, what's with all the weasel words? Switzerland is not an EU member. End of.

What does EU mean to you?

Does it mean you can move freely from country to country? (You can, it's Schengen)

How about goods? (They can, they're in the single market)

How about animals? Pets? (Switzerland accepts EU pet passports)

How about laws? Switzerland has many of the same EU laws.

How about judiciary? They're moving to accept the ECJ.

At what point does it matter if they're EU or not if all the other rules apply? If you didn't know, you'd probably wander around Switzerland thinking it was EU. That's my point. I'm not claiming they're a member state. I specifically said that, in the first line. What I am saying is that they're hardly independent of the EU, and that makes a big difference.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#309

Post by kop316 »

ubertakter wrote: post #287
kop316 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually just replaced a 3 year old Samsung Electric Dryer. The heat was no longer working, and I suspect it was the heating element. To access the heating element required me to: - Take off the control board - Take off the entire top of the dryer - Take out the door - Take out the Front panel - Take out the drum I only figured this out after finding a service manual, as I did not want to risk destroying a dryer to…

Continuing in to off-topic-ness, I had to replace the heater element on our Samsung dryer at about 6 years of age or so. It wasn't hard, but I have really good mechanical aptitude (for lack of a better way to put it). I think you should have attempted disassembly yourself (without buying the heater element first), just to see if it was actually hard to do. You might have surprised yourself.

I halfway disassembled it, and I knew I could do it, I just value my free time more than that (I'd rather spend the $400 to have my weekend). The other concern is a heating element is a relatively simple thing, so for that to go out after 3 years, I was concerned other things would go out too, making me have to fix it again.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#310

Post by kop316 »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #301
kop316 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually just replaced a 3 year old Samsung Electric Dryer. The heat was no longer working, and I suspect it was the heating element. To access the heating element required me to: - Take off the control board - Take off the entire top of the dryer - Take out the door - Take out the Front panel - Take out the drum I only figured this out after finding a service manual, as I did not want to risk destroying a dryer to…

the situation reminds me of 1950's American cars in Cuba, or the situation with MacBooks and other Macs. replacement is so expensive, some people just repair the product themselves. is it necessarily a bad thing that, for some products in some times/places, people find repairing their own products the best option?

It is not, if the part was easier to replace I probably would have done that. However I was concerned other things would go out if the heating element died (it's not a complicated part, so I question the workmanship on it). I really wish I did not have to go to grey sources to get a spare part and the service manual, and that they would be designed with repairability in mind, I would pay extra for that.
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